chrisjpr
Owosso
Full Member
Joined: 09/25/2011
View Profile
|
At my home church I am responsible for overseeing all maintenance and driver scheduling of our church bus. We have a 2007, 26 passenger, E450 Ford with the 6.0 Powerstroke diesel. The bus has 25,000 miles on it. We purchased it brand new. The bus is only driven by 3 differant drivers and is stored inside. We make sure the bus is meticulously maintained. I follow all recomended service intervals including tire rotations. Upon purchasing the bus in 2008 I noticed the steering wheel was not in allignment with the front tires, slightly turned to the right. It also appeared from a distance that the front tires were slanted or tipped in at the top, almost as if it had bad ball joints. When I inquired about this to the dealership, they took the bus in, inspected, and checked the alignment. The service advisor explained that everything was well within spec and they wouldnt be able to correct the slightly "angled" steering wheel. So I "took it for what it was" and moved on. Yesterday I parked the bus with the front wheels turned "tow to tow" or all the way to the right. While I was walking past the bus I glanced down and noticed that the inside of the driver's side tire is completely balled!!! The inside edge of the tread is completely wore off while the rest of the tire still looks brand new. So I checked the adjacent side and found the same thing!!!! These tires were just rotated from the rear less than 4,000 miles ago. So that means this bus is wearing these tires in as little as 4,000 miles. I have scheduled an appointment with our local Ford garage who handles Ford RV's and busses for this afternoon. The service advisor said this issue is common and possibly will not be able to be corrected! You've got to be kidding me. Any one else having this issue? I'm not sure if the powerstroke deisel is too heavy for the front end causing premature wear on the tires? Quite frankely I don't care. There is NO reason for this sort of issue. I will wait to jump up on my "soap box" until Ford gives me their answer this afternoon.
|
five'er
Canada
Senior Member
Joined: 09/25/2006
View Profile
|
I had a "wear issue" so I thought with my right rear.. I called all over, had it inspected as I too "requested" the tires be roated on schedule. My last inspection (before I replaced the tires) was with a tire "expert" (15 years exp) and he indicated to me that based on the wear of the tires that they had likely NEVER been rotated. What I took away from it was.. MAKE sure they actually rotate them.. (based on the lack of "rounding" on the outside rear tread) I'll be marking my tires going forward to ensure its done right.. This doesn't help with your wear issue but just some advice..
I also had a problem with my previous truck steering sheel, it was off and I took it to the dealer.. They too found nothing wrong with the alignment, turns out the factory installed the steeringwheel off centre.. quick easy fix..
|
dlbapm
Escondido, CA, USA
Full Member
Joined: 01/17/2005
View Profile
Good Sam RV Club Member
|
I have motorhome on 2005 E450 chassis. Actual gross weight when traveling is about 13,500 pounds. Always tow a 4000 pound Jeep. Have gone 99K miles. On my 3rd set of tires and they should be good for at least another 20K. I replace my tires early and have averaged over 40K per set. All tires have been Michelin LTX/MS 225-75R-16; same as OEM tires on E450 chassis. I have replaced the sway bars and steering stablilizer on my rig with heavier duty units.
My thoughts on your problem:
1. Per my tire person and frontend alignment person, the Ford factory specs for the frontend are poor. My advice would be to forget the Ford dealer and find a good frontend shop that does motorhomes, emergency vehicles, busses, and other heavy vehicles.
2. The E450 frontend can be properly aligned, but it requires some work in order to adjust the camber (or was it the caster?). They must "drill out the towers" and install some adjustment cams. This parameter is not adjustable on the stock Ford E450 frontend (Same situation on a lot of other vehicles, particulary pickup trucks.) I had this work done with the first frontend alignment at 10K miles.
3. Assuming that your E450 has dual rear wheels, it sounds like you have rotated some of the "dually" tires to the frontend. I believe that most tire people will tell you that this is not a good practice. The front tires that are inserted into the "dually sets" may have worn differently and not be exactly the same diameter as the existing tires. This can cause increased wear on the rear tires. My practice has been to never breakup the "dually pairs." I have them rebalanced every so often and at about 20K miles move the pairs from "side to side" on the vehicle. My front tires get rebalanced and moved side to side every 10K miles and at 20K I have them remounted "inside out."
4. Is it possible that the excessive tire wear actually occurred while the tires were on the rear? I have noticed that I get the most tire wear on the inside edge of the inside rear dual tires. It is not excessive; about 1/32 or 2/32 inches more than the balance of the tire when the tire has reached "end of life" which is 6/32 inch tread.
5. Obviously improper alignement of the frontend can cause excessive tire wear. I failed to get my frontend aligned in time and developed "cupping" of the front tires. Other than that the wear pattern on the front tires has always been consistent; generally even across the tire or slightly more on the inside edges.
Doug
|
jbarry
California
Senior Member
Joined: 11/04/2006
View Profile
 Offline
|
Took my 2004 Minnie to an independent alignment shop and they installed a "camber kit". Owner indicated, as others on the forum have, that Fords are inherently problematic with front end alignment. The fix was definitely not cheap...about $250.00, but the front end tires are wearing perfectly. (Cheaper fix than buying new tires often!)
|
ron.dittmer
Northern Illinois
Senior Member
Joined: 02/26/2007
View Profile
Offline
|
We own a 2007 E350 chassis motor home which I feel could relate to your 2008 E450 church bus.
In 2007 with only 800 miles on it, I took our rig to a local shop HERE that specializes in motor homes, trucks, emergency vehicles, and buses. Loaded as if on a trip, our front wheels were so far out of whack with positive camper that the shop had to use offset bushings to get the camber correct. The experts there said this is extremely common which is why aftermarket bushing kits are available to make it right. I have heard from others on this forum that some Ford shops adjust as far as possible with the stock parts and say that is all they can do.
There are challenges with a school bus compared to a motor home. Motor home weight distribution would be very consistent from year to year, trip to trip. But a school bus has a full spectrum of weight distribution pending how many people and where they sit inside the bus. If they all sat rear of the rear wheels, the front end would rise, creating positive camber. If they all sat as far forward as possible, the bus would have negative camber. There must be a median calculation of which the specs are based.
The illustrations explain positive and negative camber. It sounds like your church school bus suffers from negative camber. Or maybe it was taken on a very long trip where all the gear and people were too far forward over too many miles.
Who really loads a bus with this consideration?
 
2007 Phoenix Cruiser model 2350, with 2006 Jeep Liberty in-tow
|
|
|
j-d
Sunny Florida USA
Senior Member
Joined: 09/04/2003
View Profile
Good Sam RV Club Member
Offline
|
The common claim is that Ford ships their chassis not knowing that it'll be a motorhome (or a bus!) so they set the front end up in an "empty vehicle" manner. I have a lot of trouble with that, because there are specific "Motorhome Prep", "Ambulance Prep", etc. etc. flavors of the E-Series cutaways and stripped chassis. And clearly they should have planned on the added weight of your diesel since they installed it after all.
Anyhow, we find out that a loaded RV (and probably a loaded bus) can't be aligned to spec without replacing the concentric upper balljoint sleeves with offset sleeves. These are ordered according to how much change is needed to get from where the alignment IS to where it SHOULD BE. They can adjust Caster, Camber, or Both. Then the Toe is set after the Two C's are right.
There's an Ingalls 1594 (or maybe 59400) Adjustable Bushings. Their lookup doesn't show E450, only E250/350 but our guys've bought them for 450s.
One of our guys, Harvard, did a lot of research and adjustments to his own E450 using those Ingalls bushings. What he found was Caster is the key to good tracking, suggests setting it to the High Positive end of the spec range, NOT Neutral/Zero. Camber didn't seem to matter much, but shouldn't be Negative. Toe should be Zero to a little IN.
Personally, I think your bus is toed OUT. Drive slowly to a straight-ahead stop. Stick a hat pin into the tread of each tire behind the front axle, high as you can and still get a tape measure straight across. Measure between the pins. Now drive the bus ahead till the pins appear in front of the axle, same height off the ground as they were in the rear. Measure again. If my guess is right, the Front measure will be noticeably more than the Rear measure. It doesn't matter what they are, just the difference. They should be equal or the Front just a little LESS than the Rear.
If toed out, it'll wander, and it'll wear the inside edges of the front tires. Ford doesn't recommend rotating the rear tires, but you can move front to rear and evenly worn rear tires to the front, even flipping them on the rim if you need to. You want the worn edge BETWEEN the rear tires.
God Bless, jd
2003 Jayco Escapade 31A on 2002 Ford E450 V10 4R100
|
crasster
Dallas
Senior Member
Joined: 07/06/2007
View Profile
Offline
|
Wow, I love this forum. Learn something new everytime I'm on it.
4 whopping cylinders on Toyota RV's. Talk about great getting good MPG. Also I have a very light foot on the pedal. I followed some MPG advice on Livingpress.com and I now get 22 MPG! Not bad for a home on wheels.
|
chrisjpr
Owosso
Full Member
Joined: 09/25/2011
View Profile
|
After returning from the Ford dealership it turns out Ford builds a piece of garbage cut away chassis. The bus needs all new ball joints. The service advisor told me this is extremely common. He said they handle all the SATA busses (our local transit autority) which are E450 chassis and they rarely get over 30,000 miles out of a set of ball joints. What a joke. The bus is 1 year and 8 months out warranty so the church is going to have to eat the $700.00 bill. I contacted Ford Customer Care in effort to get some assistance with this situation. They were more than accommodating and have assigned a case number. They said they will make a decision in 4 to 5 business days. I won't ever buy another Ford product again if they do not resolve this.
|
j-d
Sunny Florida USA
Senior Member
Joined: 09/04/2003
View Profile
Good Sam RV Club Member
Offline
|
I'm sure this is a stretched chassis, correct? It shouldn't be, but the shop that worked on ours said "those long ones really wear the front end out." Ours is stretched from 158" to 218" plus probably another bunch of rear overhang.
What you can do, given Ford declines, is replace the balljoints yourself and include the Ingalls adjustable bushings. Then you can have a shop set the alignment any way you want. Install grease fittings in the new joints and lube them frequently.
Editorial remark: 1991 and earlier, E-Series used nearly indestructible King Pins in the front end. Also had front sway bars with end links. It took till about 2009 to go back to end links, but those lousy ball joints are still there. Very late E-Series may have gotten better joints. Perhaps others can comment.
|
chrisjpr
Owosso
Full Member
Joined: 09/25/2011
View Profile
|
j-d wrote:I'm sure this is a stretched chassis, correct? It shouldn't be, but the shop that worked on ours said "those long ones really wear the front end out." Ours is stretched from 158" to 218" plus probably another bunch of rear overhang.
What you can do, given Ford declines, is replace the balljoints yourself and include the Ingalls adjustable bushings. Then you can have a shop set the alignment any way you want. Install grease fittings in the new joints and lube them frequently.
Editorial remark: 1991 and earlier, E-Series used nearly indestructible King Pins in the front end. Also had front sway bars with end links. It took till about 2009 to go back to end links, but those lousy ball joints are still there. Very late E-Series may have gotten better joints. Perhaps others can comment.
If Ford won't come through I will be taking it to a different shop and having them replace the joints with Moog life time warranted greeseable ball joints.
|
|
|
|
