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RE: Reese WD bar question??
Hi Taken
I may be able to help. I have both 1,200 and 1,700 # WD bars and there is a force difference.
I also did the Towbeast upgrade. Here see what you are in for including pics. I hope you have 3/4 drive sockets or eat your Weathies in the AM. The bolts to the frame have lock tight on them and they are going to fight you every step of the way. All 8… My 1/2 impact about rattled me to death so I gave up on it and pulled out can the 3/4 inch drive and they painfully came off.
F350 Receiver Upgrade - (Pic's)
I also assuming you have the 2 1/2" hitch shank too to go along with the 1,700# rating. It works good. Here see what it will looks like.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Hitch%20Setup/F350andTowbeast.jpg
Now to the WD bars. Yes the 1,700’s have an impression stamp right in the WD bar that says 1,700. I can attest they are stronger. I have a 1,400# loaded tongue weight. If you actually load to 1,700# get a monster wood block to go under the tongue jack as you are not going to pull that WD bar up with the pipe. I have a 6” block and I use all jack stroke, truck way up in the air and I still have to pull a little on the pipe.
Now what is different then the 1,200’s? Rob Gratz gave a good technical reason. I now have my curiosity up. Nominally they are the same. BUT I did not pull out the calipers, but will and report back. By eyeball you cannot see it. If it is not temper, then the taper theory sounds possible.
Hope this helps
John
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JBarca
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03/10/10 09:08pm |
Towing
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RE: Air Bag Helper Spring Pressure w/ WD Hitch Towing
Hi Bill
Well I did some digging for you and seeing your pics and new info , here are some comments. You really gave us a lot to work with. Key is sorting it out…. I’m just stating an opinion looking some 575 miles away thru a computer screen… So you tell me where I go wrong here. (I looked up my house to Stone Harbor, it is 575m away or I would come over and help… Are you right on the coast? WOW) OK, so here goes.
John -
I have been watching this thread with interest, as I have a Pro Series SC which I purchased in April, 2008. I have never been totally satisfied with the set up in that I could never get my van level . Originally, I was towing with a 1995 Chevy G20 Conversion Van, and while handling and sway were fine, I could not get the rear end sag out without adding air to my air bags. I chalked it up to the rear springs in the van being on the soft side, and the van being loaded to near full capacity.
Recently, I got a Ford E350 Super Duty Van with the Powerstroke diesel. The rear springs in this truck ought to be plenty stiff, and I am only loading it to about 75% of it's rated capacity ....
I highlighted 2 things that stuck out to me. I finding puzzle pieces of your setup that I think I can help with. Let’s go on some more.
To make a long story short, I have tried tilting the head all the way back and going to a 2" rise ball ( I have a 6" frame also), but can't seem to do any better than an 1.5 inch sag in the rear, and a 3/8 inch rise in the front. We just towed 3500 miles to Florida and back, and it handled perfectly, and since the van looks a little rear end high when it is unloaded, the uneven sag is not too noticeable (except to me).
I picked up on that you said you have a 6” wide frame. And your fender heights. More on this in a moment.
I think the only option is to purchase a new ball mount, or should I be looking at different system?
I seems like I have the same ball mount as Mike - the patent numbers cast into the side, and PN 112/50 (or maybe 112750) cast into the mount under the ball. The "holes" where the trunnions mount measure about 1-3/8" at the bottom and taper a bit out toward the top. The studs on the trunnions measure about 1-1/8 at the base and taper down to about 1" at the tip. They are about 3/4" long. I do not appear to be in the small trunnion situation ....
Now that we have some pics of your total hitch and some measurements, lets look at a few things.
I tried flipping the bars over (with the reinforcement downward - opposite from what is show in the drawings) and it did not see to have any effect on my measurements, although to be fair, the street in front of my house is not exactly level - there is some slope sideways toward the curve.
Putting a straight edge along the bar shows just under 1/8" deflection.
A local dealer has a spare ball mount in stock, so I think I will just get it, and run things like they are, but it bugs me that I can't really figure it out, and can't seem to do anything to get more weight on the front axle. There appears to be lots of force being applied to the trunnion/ball mount joint - you can see the wear in the pictures. Should the trunnions be lubricated? The instructions are silent on lubrication......
Here is something that keeps sticking out between Mikes post and now yours. Flipping the WD bar over does not seem to change the WD much. It is hard to tell from the pics but here goes. I “think” (guesstimate) that the trunnion lugs that are with the original SC hitch, do not have much if any angle between the trunnion lugs and the WD bar. And if that is the case, flipping then over is not going to change the WD very much. Here see this pic. of yours.
It is either 90 degrees between the WD bar and trunnion lugs or maybe only 89 degress by the looks of it. In all the Reese pic I see of that hitch, it shows up looking very square to the end.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Hitch%20Setup/crackedSChead.jpg
And look at Mikes. His shows the same thing.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Hitch%20Setup/SCWDbarlockup.jpg
Also note in Mike pic that the trunnion sockets center line in the hitch head and the center line thru the tow ball are at a good angle to each other.
Now look at some of my WD bars that use Reese PN 58098 WD bar trunnion lug end and Reese 58097 trunnion lug end. The center of the trunnion lugs is about 82 degrees to the center of the WD bar.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Hitch%20Setup/ReeseTrunnionBar-Corrected.jpg
Now why I bring this up is 3 fold
1.If it the WD bar center is almost square to the center of the trunnion lugs, then flipping the WD bar is not going to have that much affect in WD. If you flip a WD bar with 8 degrees angle like mine that is a lot and will almost totally unload the WD effect.
2. I have a 2009 Reese catalog here. The 2010 catalog on the Reese web site no longer has very much WD hitches in it….yet they sell them. Good company, just the web site has changed so much every year of things coming and going it is hard to keep track of… OK back on track.
The newer generation Reese SC hitch uses hitch head 58617. That also happens to the HP trunnion bar head that I have with the DC. And that hitch head uses trunnion lugs pn 58098 for the 600 and 800# WD bars that are 1 1/8” square going into the trunnion lug. They have trunnion lug 58097 for the 1,200#, 1,500# WD bars which is 1 3/8" square going into the trunnion lug . So Reese combined parts between the SC series and the HP WD trunion bar hitch used with the DC. It woudl be great to actaulyl see one of the new SC hitched on a side view to see the trunion socket anlge I'm refering to. Maybe we can get some one to post that has one.
And see here how those 82 degree trunnion lugs fit the 58617 head.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Hitch%20Setup/ReeseWDbarlockup.jpg
See here the 58617 on the right and yours (Mikes) on the left
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Hitch%20Setup/Oldstyletonewstulelockup.jpg
The fit of the WD bar in the head is different and allows more WD bar tension due to the setup without so much head tilt.
3. Originally I thought you might be able to upgrade the trunnion lugs and use then in the new 58617 head. But 1 snafu.
Bill you said you measured 1 1/4” square WD bars on what you think are 1,100# WD bars. Well recheck that 1 1/4” as if that is right without machined a up adapter the WD bars you have are not going to fit in the new head style WD bar trunnion lugs. The 1 1/8” is too small and the 1 3/8” is too big.
There is 1 last hope of using that new 58617 head with your existing WD bars. Call Reese Tech service. Tell them your situation and ask them if you can use the 58617 head with you smaller trunnion lug WD bars. Then may fit and “might” lock up sooner, OR maybe not as they sockets are bigger. Unless I had one here to try I can’t tell. If Reese says it is OK, they that is an option. If the WD bar will lock up in the 58617 sooner then it will in your existing head it will allow more WD effect. Ideal is to take your WD bar to a dealer and try it. Just stick the WD bar in and look at the angle of lock up and compare to your old head. If you are not gaining any lock up angle, well then it won’t matter which head you use.
The lube in the trunnion sockets. Yes they need lube. I use grease like I do on the tow ball. I use the Reese on the ball white grease lube. Or you can use gear oil like Mike was told. But they do need lube or else they will wear heavy over time.
JBarca - when I went to take a picture of the set up today, I thought I found the problem - the bracket on the passenger side was set a hole lower than the one on the driver's side. I had obviously not checked both sides carefully - unfortunately, this is the way the dealer set it up. I was conviced that was the problem, and moved the bracket, but alas - there was no difference. Please note that these pictures were taken with the bracket in the wrong hole, and with the bars "upside down" just to try it. My bars are 1-1/4" square. I was told they were the 1100 lb bars by the dealer, but don't know how to ID them as they are not marked. The dealer said he measured the tongue weight when the trailer was empty at 850 lbs, but I do not know what it is now. I will bring a load cell home from work tomorrow to check it. I am guessing it could be close to 1000 lbs. The most recent measurements (with the bracket in the correct position were taken on the street in front of my house which is almost dead level front to back, but has a slight pitch toward the passenger side:
LR was 39-1/2" now 37-1/2" diff -2"
RR was 39" now 37-1/2" diff -1-1/2
LF was 39-3/4" now 40-1/2" diff +3/4
RF was 40" now 39-7/8" diff -1/8
It isn't too bad, but it seems like I should be able to get it to settle even.
Next thing. You stated earlier you had a 6” wide A frame. Can you check and verify that? If it is, then for sure there is an optical illusion going on. The pic of your A frame does not look like other 6” frames. More like a 5”. Here is why.
See here on you’re A frame. The distance from the bottom of the ball coupler to the bottom of the frame looks about 1”. And you have extra holes to adjust the WD pads up.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Hitch%20Setup/JayfeatherSChitch.jpg
Look at Mikes. The distance from the bottom of the ball coupler to the bottom of the frame is greater and he has no holes showing that he can adjust his WD pads. His is a 6” frame
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Hitch%20Setup/SCwithhirise.jpg
He is my 6” frame. Look at the distance at the ball coupler.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Hitch%20Setup/ReeseHPtruninonbarhead.jpg
And look at this one on my old TT. This is a 5” frame.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Hitch%20Setup/Reesehitchwithcaptions.jpg
In closing I see these things.
1. You keep mentioning level out the TV, including your new 3/4 ton van. Are you thinking ideal WD on your Ford the truck needs equal squat or must be level? When the front end is returned to unhitched weight, that is the optimum on Fords for WD. The rear will have some drop. Getting the rear and front to drop equal means you are over compressing the front end. That is not the ideal for Ford setup. And with the hitch you have, there needs to a lot more WD to ever get the front of the truck to go below unhitched. I agree by your fender height a little more WD could help. The back may then be 1” to 1 1/2 down. The 2” in the LR seems like much. A truck scale will tell a lot.
2. You mentioned weighing the tongue. Yes please do. It might fool you. I know mine use to until I got a Sherline tongue scale. Man stuff adds up…. The WD bar sizing, that one Reese might be able to help if there is no sticker. The normal 800# WD bars are generally 1 1/8 square at the ends but in the SC hitch they may be changing the temper of the steel to get different ratings.
A heads up. I zoomed in and looked at your Jay Feather A frame. That “looks” like one of there lighter weight A frame. Sort of like this
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Camper%20Friends%20Posts/2007%20T2499%20Frame%20Crack/Framepic18Jfethr.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Camper%20Friends%20Posts/2007%20T2499%20Frame%20Crack/Framepic19Jfethr.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Camper%20Friends%20Posts/2007%20T2499%20Frame%20Crack/Framepic20Jfethr.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Camper%20Friends%20Posts/2007%20T2499%20Frame%20Crack/Framepic23Jfethr.jpg
Does you’re A frame look like that vintage Jay Feather? Reason I bring this up is just a friendly heads up as I have seen on some of those light weight Jay Feathers have a sticker that said 1,000# WD bars max. Jayco had some issues early on with higher tongue weigths/WD bars on those lighter frames. Now that you have a heavier suspension Van, is the any weight aft of the TV axle in the van? The WD hitch is going to work on that weight as well. And that then works on the WD bars and then into the A frame. Need to find out your loaded tongue weight, find out the WD bar rating and then regroup. And maybe a call to Jayco with your vin number to see if that 1,000# WD bar loading applies or not on your frame. Ask , what is the highest tongue weight and WD bar you can use without A frame concerns.
3. Since you have extra holes on the WD bar pad brackets, can you go up 1 hole on each side? That will give you a lot more WD. But again check your weights out first. Don’t want to fix the WD to then find out you have an A frame issue. Your 2" hi rise ball really lowers the head. A 1" hi rise and lifting the WD pads up might give you the WD but and the WD bars be more parallel to the frame and not riding up hill to much. Some up hill will work, a real lot might create some turning issues.
Hope this all helps some. Tell me if I miss read into some of your setup. Glad to help as I can.
Thanks
John
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JBarca
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03/09/10 09:49pm |
Towing
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RE: Air Bag Helper Spring Pressure w/ WD Hitch Towing
Anybody have any thoughts or comments?
Hi Cathcartww
I will type more tonight but I have some things for you to think thru before you buy the exact same hitch head of the vintage you have now. You may be able to upgrade to the newer head and trunnion lugs that is sold on the new Reese SC hitch.
Do you have any side pics of your hitch on the TT frame?
What is the square dimension of the WD bars as they insert into the trunnion lug end?
What size WD bars are they?
And do you know your loaded tongue weight?
Do you have before and after TV fender heights when hitched and with WD engaged?
Here is the quick answer with more to follow as I’m short on time right now. Rather then buying the same head you have now, buy the new head that is sold for the Reese SC hitch. This will require the new head and new trunnion ends. Your WD issue on the truck is steming from the angle the trunnion sockets are cast into the hitch head and your 6” frame. The new HP hitch head does not have this same issue and can allow for more WD transfer with your 6" frame setup.
Be back later
John
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JBarca
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03/09/10 06:00am |
Towing
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RE: Removing Eternabond - Any one done it?
remove ET
Thanks!! I missed that one. Seems my tricks are about the same. Even the brake cleaner...
I'll post when I get done if I found anything any better.
John
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JBarca
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03/07/10 12:29pm |
Travel Trailers
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Removing Eternabond - Any one done it?
Hi Folks
I am repairing the side of my slide out. Last fall I put 2" wide Eternabond tape over the slide flange to the side of the slide as a weather seal over the putty tape. So this is against aluminum and plastic that I’m trying to get the Eternabond off of. I need to take the corner of the slide flange off so the tape has to go and I need to close the slide back up before the job is complete. Do not want the exposed Eternabond to get stuck on the rubber seals when closed.
Here is the Eternabond web site giving the basics.
http://www.eternabond.com/articles.asp?id=165
Using a heat gun and scraper I have made it thru the heavy stuff now I’m at the fine stuff. Anyone have a magic trick on how to get the residual off? This stuff is amazing…. Glad this is not on the roof trying to get it off.
It seems petroleum products have a level of effect if the film is thin enough after the scraper and heat. WD 40 does some, paint thinner too but this is like pulling teeth without the pliers. The web site mentioned Acetone and that does not seem to touch it. WD 40 works better then the Acetone.
Anyone have a trick that works better?
Thanks
John
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JBarca
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03/07/10 11:37am |
Travel Trailers
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RE: Slide Floor Water Damage (Long with lots of pics)
Today the weather finally broke. YEH!!!! :)
To much snow on the ground still to go camping but I could pull to camper over on the concrete and see if I can at least dry out this wet section. Late December was when I opened up the Darco to take a peak was the eye opening experiance. And ever since it the weather has been so cold or snowy, or more snowy or even more snow :M that I have not been able to dry that area out.
So today I started the process to at least try can get the moisture out of this area. When I pulled the Darco flap down it was still froze. So I set up a small heater to blow on it. It reached 46F here today so that helped too. By late afternoon I stuck a screw driver in the area of the rot and it literally disintegrated and started falling out…… So I dug some more and then let the air get in deeper. This is the pile at the end of today.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/T310SR%20Camper%20Upgrades/Slide%20Floor%20Repair/Pileoffloor.jpg
And a shot in from the end. Yes that yellow patch is carpet foam under the rug. Glad they wrapped the Darco as far as they did. This will help the spread into other areas, I hope.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/T310SR%20Camper%20Upgrades/Slide%20Floor%20Repair/Driedoutfloor.jpg
And towards the outer wall.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/T310SR%20Camper%20Upgrades/Slide%20Floor%20Repair/floormissing2.jpg
And a close up under the outer wall. Yuk….
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/T310SR%20Camper%20Upgrades/Slide%20Floor%20Repair/driedoutfloorcloseup.jpg
Sunday I try and clean it up more and dry out some more as I formulate the get well plan. First is how to get to that area to put a patch in.
Here is the side
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/T310SR%20Camper%20Upgrades/Slide%20Floor%20Repair/floortakeapart.jpg
And the end view
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/T310SR%20Camper%20Upgrades/Slide%20Floor%20Repair/floortakeapart2.jpg
I “think” the gold lower siding is held on at the fender well area and the slide corner strip. The gold has to come off. So the fender well and a good part of the slide corner flange have to be unscrewed. And then for sure the 1st piece of white siding they goes thru the cargo hole has to be at least loosened up. So the cargo hole has to come out. Then on the end of the slide I may be able to just fold back the white plastic end panel to get to the slide sill plate as I need to attach the patch to the sill with bolts.
So the project continues. I’ll keep you posted.
John
PS Anyone know how to get Eternabond off? Heat and pull? I have a strip over the slide flange that has to come off.
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JBarca
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03/06/10 09:09pm |
Travel Trailers
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RE: Swapping out Reese HP DC for Equalizer question
Me too John - even though I did lose the DaVinci challenge :W :B
Les
Snip... For now all he gets are my "cheesy" compliments :B
Les
Les, I'll take your "cheesy" compliments anytime! :C
H'mm, now we need another RV myth to bust or law of physics to rediscover :B :W
And it is even more entertaining if we both do not agree to start with….. LOL
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JBarca
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03/06/10 06:20pm |
Towing
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RE: Swapping out Reese HP DC for Equalizer question
Based on your most recent (on a roll response) that number would be valuable if not for any other reason than to be sure the owner is providing sufficient tension for the hitch to work. Is one hole from resting non tension status enough tension to provide the WD and sway? Does it take two or three holes in the L bracket to get sufficient tension to make the hitch sway work? It would be interesting especially as it relates to trucks like one tons that really don't need much WD (if any), but still need sway. Any manufacturer can say just about anything they want to about their product as advertising. Reality says at too little tension it doesn't work well, or maybe not at all. It is not a sway hitch without WD and without sufficient tension on the bars. Absent from their instructions (at least the version I have) is any reference to be sure to apply sufficient tension to the bars. Thanks again this has been a good discussion.
JM
You have a good point and one I wish there was a more clear trail for folks towing TT's. It is all towing vehicles not just the larger trucks.
I have yet to find a published rating system on how to first select the right hitch to match the TV and TT and give a level of assurance it will help and how much for anti sway. When you get into the friction based anti-sway hitches there are many variables outside of the hitch that have to be in order to allow the hitch to do a good job. The hitch manufactures know that I’m sure and may be why they do not publish a rating system.
Ideally thru some calculating and testing there can be a way to at least put these hitches into categories for particular TV and TT combinations. That would help narrow down the search. The TT manufactures build TT’s to be pulled filled with a varity of floor plans and tongue weights, TV manufactures rate there vehicles to pull not what they can control. The hitch manufactures offer products that can help control some of the effects of towing on the ball. No one really puts all 3 together in combinations so a new comer can make an educated decision on them.
So until the industry changes, we can at least talk about it here and get a level of help when we can.
John
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JBarca
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03/05/10 10:04pm |
Towing
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RE: Swapping out Reese HP DC for Equalizer question
WOW Guys, Thanks!! I’m humbled….. blush, blush, blush
There are a number of us here who “get into” our towing…. Each new combination of TV and TT creates a slightly different setup and that makes it interesting.
I’m not the only one here that is into this… I just may photo document it more and have a nitch with the Reese line up. There are several of us that help as we can. I actually have a several page complete drill, install and adjust pict-o-gram for Reese HP DC I did up for the Sunline Forum. I never made it to posting here but maybe it may help too. The smaller forums do not have the wide spread diversity we do here. It provides so much info that I was afraid many new comers would be overwhelmed with it and not even read it. However maybe those having problems might read it as they already read the instructions and are still having issues. H’mm, maybe I’ll reconsider. Have to figure out how to tailor it for this forum.
The age of camping forums has reached out and helped more people over the last several years then in the prior 30 plus I’m guessing before camping forums ever existed. I know I have learned tons of things I just never would have been exposed to. And each make my towing and camping that much more enjoyable.
Thanks guys, hope to meet up with ya in a campground some day.
John
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JBarca
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03/05/10 09:40pm |
Towing
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RE: Swapping out Reese HP DC for Equalizer question
John,
My Equalizer hitch clearly has the spring bars going under the tongue and frame of the trailer. Hitting is not an issue. You said something that I am having a little trouble visualizing. "The key to both hitches is to not break free the initial friction lock". Does this mean the EQ bars are not supposed to move in the L brackets? The Reese has a detent if I understand it correctly and as the sway begins the spring bar tries to move out of the detent held in place by the cam and as it tries to move the spring bar it becomes more tensioned plus having to move out of the detent. That counters sway at an increasing rate. I think I can easily visualize how that works. On EQ hitches the bars are not subject to a detent and sway is mitigated by friction at the sockets mostly and a little at the L brackets. So, there must be some movement at the L brackets. One can almost draw the conclusion that the EQ is not really much of a sway hitch if I am visualizing this correctly. For example, where is the resistance to sway increasing as it does on the Reese or is it just a constant value, whatever amount of tension is dialed in provides that amount of sway friction at the L bracket but largely at the sockets. Any ideas?
Hi JM
Here are my thoughts on this and why I said “The key to both hitches is to not break free the initial friction lock”
The Reese DC, the Equal-I-zer, the new Husky Centerline, Blue OX sway pro and the Reese SC hitch work to make a stiff connection between the TV and TT. The older friction sway bars did this too but at much different levels of friction plus the friction sway bar has some small play in the pivot joints. All these friction hitches are trying to dampen out the sway affects that comes from towing on the ball a large distance behind the rear axle of the truck. Some are better then others pending your TV and TT.
Let’s take your Equal-I-zer. The L brackets create a high force static friction lock so to speak. The heavy load of the WD bar pushing against the L brackets creates a force and the steel on steel creates the coefficient of friction. The 2 act together to create an inline resistive force between 2 surfaces. On the WD bars you run dry mostly, I know they have Teflon or nylon pads to quiet it down but the setup creates a constant level of friction. The trunnion sockets area also creates a heavy constant level of torsional resistance due to the friction, some from the tightening of the pivot bolt and more so with the top of the trunnion socket lifting up against the hitch head from the WD bar force. In fact some have reported that when new and dry that the hitch head pivot is so stiff the TT does not track back to center right. Reports are a call to Progress tech support says to grease it. Well the grease cuts the friction. If the friction is so high to the point of rigid, turning would be very difficult to not doable. Superior sway control, just can’t turn…
Now to my statement of setting them up to not break free the initial friction lock. When you are towing down the road and the truck needs to turn, it can overpower the stiffness of the L brackets and the trunnion sockets and you turn as needed. When you turn, the hitch articulates and the TV turning breaks loose the static friction lock at the WD bars L brackets as they start sliding and the WD bars pivot in the trunnions. It is a constant stiff turning of the hitch shank by the truck.
When you are towing down the road going forward and a sway force event acts on the side of the TT and TV pushing on the TT/TV connection, the driver is not turning at that instant in time. The TT will track straight right behind the TV until the sway force gets high enough that it overcomes the static friction holding force (Lock) resisting movement at the L brackets and trunnions. If the sway force is high enough, the push force keeps coming and the TT and TV start to pivot at the tow ball. Since there are no cams in the equation the friction force is constant either when static or sliding and as there is no change in WD force. And by the laws of friction, once the initial static friction is overcome, you then have sliding friction. And sliding friction has a slight drop in holding force while it is sliding. It levels out quick to constant once moving but it is lower then the initial breakaway from the static condition. So the actual holding force goes down once the WD bars start sliding. Once the sway force decreases enough that the WD bar stops sliding, you are back to static friction and once again have to overcome that locking force so to speak.
The Reese DC like I said increases the WD force with the more movement of the hitch at the tow ball from being in line with the TT. That increases the friction above where it was and helps offset the sliding friction force drop. There are only 2 ways I know of to increase the friction force, more force applied between the 2 surfaces or a different coefficient of friction of the 2 materials.
The key to any of these friction hitches is to 1st get the TT balanced right so it has natural anti sway characteristics thru proper tongue weight. Then make sure the TV can handle the TT properly with proper WD on the truck, tire stiffness and truck suspension for the weights your carrying. Then last is to create a “stiff enough” friction holding force to combat the sway forces against your TT and TV combination. The stiff enough has a lot surrounding it. TV wheel base, TT length and height, TV and TT weights, rear overhang on the truck rear axle to the tow ball, speed of towing, wind, quick TV maneuvers, WD on the TV to name a few. If the friction lock is stronger then the sway forces that act on your TV and TT combination, towing is good. If the friction lock is not strong enough, issues can arise.
One ideally would need force gages setup on the Equal-I-zer and the Reese DC hitch to figure out which hitch breaks the initial friction lock first. Between the greasing, tightening of bolts, WD bar loading etc the variables are many. The Reese has a dynamic action going on where the EQ is fairly constant. The Reese is also pushing up hill which is harder to do. But it does not have pre-tightened trunnion sockets. The EQ may be able to be setup to have a higher initial static locking friction but then it looses it once it starts sliding. The Reese may breaks free at close to the same forces but may be able to recover faster. I have never sat down and ran all the forces holding each other together. Sinton’s post was the first time I tried to back into the range of the holding forces. I can relate to what is going on in a machine by pounds of force against objects better when I know at least the range of forces we are dealing with.
There is a limit to all these friction hitches in towing. Each one has is own limitations when towing on the ball. They can only correct so much.
I know that may have been more then you where thinking, but I was on a roll...
Hope this helps
John
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JBarca
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03/04/10 09:59pm |
Towing
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RE: Swapping out Reese HP DC for Equalizer question
Dan
First off, you are very welcome. Glad it helped. And glad to help a fellow camper anytime. All this hitch stuff I have picked up over the years hope it can help some one else too. Plus I like doing it and learning more. And I too learn more each time I help someone out as their rig is different combination of TT and TV.
And special “At a boy” to you.:) You have taken this seriously and stuck with it and now understand it. Super congrats to you! :C And don’t worry about how many times it takes. Your first setup until you get it dialed in perfect always takes the longest as your learning what affects what. The next time you set up a hitch from either a TT or TV change, well now you know how to dial it in. Key is, knowing what you want to end up with and why. That’s the hard part. I remember well my first time. DW did not exactly understand why I was measuring and adjusting and figuring so much…. "Now what are you douing:? You jsut did that last weekend. :R" But I learned and now no problem and she appreciates the calm towing. She was with me the non calm times....
And some folks, their rig combo just falls in place quick and they really do not know why it did as they never had and issue with it. Then others, like you, I and many others have to work at it as the one size fits all instructions don’t cut it with every combo out there.
On the grease, You can grease good on the trunnion lugs in the hitch head. A lot of force there and they will wear if you do not grease good. And grease the tow ball good too as well. There you do not have to be stingy either. Your TT ball coupler will last longer and the new tempered towball when greased may not even have a hint of wear on it when greased.
The DC and the Vaseline, yes what you are doing being light there is good until you know you are stable. And even then you do not need a lot.
Here are my thoughts on relieving some of the weight off the front. I would stay at 6 links. Just back off 1 tooth of head tilt and then try it. And then check the DC to see it is still spot on. You do not need much taken off. Taking a whole link out my intuition tells me is too much.
For future reference it takes slightly over 2 teeth of head tilt to equal 1 chain link of WD transfer. I have found this out by experiment and Reese confirmed it when I talked with them. So the head tilt is fine adjustment and the chain is course.
I'll mention again the tire pressure experiment by 5 psi going up to see if it holds better. Each truck and tire reacts a little different.
Good luck and happy camping. Where here if you need up.
John
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JBarca
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03/04/10 08:23pm |
Towing
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RE: Swapping out Reese HP DC for Equalizer question
John,
I do not use the Reese hitch so I am at a loss from that standpoint. Your hitch looks very well adjusted. I concur with your comments about less tilt, less chain under tension, etc. I appreciate the comments about the extra long ball to clear the trailer frame. I was not aware of that and was thinking that the OP was adding the ball height to compensate for trailer tongue sag. Maybe I read that somewhere else in his thread and got confused.
I do have a question for you. Does the angle of the torsion bar and cam change the ability of the sway mechanism? It would seem to me it would have some factor but I have no real knowledge as the arc moves towards ninety degrees (unrealistic or course) it's ability to counter sway would be less? Maybe the OP should try to change the tilt and get the cams and torsion bars as level as possible even though with this hitch it appears that they are never parallel with the trailer frame or ground.
I appreciate your thoughtful analysis in this thread, your help in working with the OP and your concern for getting it right. You are a credit to the forum.
JM
Thanks for your kind words. Greatly appreciated.
The Reese DC is a good hitch however it has some unique setup issues to work thru pending what type of WD hitch and TT A Frame you are using it on. My opinion is the trunnion bar HP hitch is there a better WD hitch over there round bar that does allow WD bars parallel to the frame. I say this because of the Trunnion bar HP head tilt. You get a serrated fine tooth rear tilt adjustment to 15degrees back in the 3 pieced heads and 14 degrees on the new all cast ones.
The round bar head has a hex washer. You get 0 degrees tilt, 2 positions towards the truck and 2 positions towards the TT rear tilt which is about 7 degree total rear tilt. With shank to pin box slope that can eat up 4 degree of rear tilt only leaves 3 degrees of adjustment. Not much. Some using the DC with the round bar hitch have run out of head tilt and cannot take up any more chain links as you need 5 links under tension to not bind in the DC area.
So the truninon bar head. The WD bars have trunnion lugs on an angle on purpose. Looks like this.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Hitch%20Setup/ReeseTrunnionBar-Corrected.jpg
The WD bar is made to lock up in the hitch head with the WD bar pointing down hill. The HP trunnion bar hitch is not intended to have the WD bars parallel to the frame. In fact if you attempt to do that the trunnion lug castings can hit the A frame in a turn. Like this.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Hitch%20Setup/CastLugHit.jpg
If the WD bar has enough down hill tilt the trunnion lug can pass under the frame. Then there is the DC itself. When the WD bar gets close to parallel to the DC cam arm you can get a bind in a turn. The WD becomes a lever and try’s to pull the self taping screws some use out of the frame to hold on the DC brackets or they snap off the end of the DC arm. Like this
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Reese%20Dual%20Cam%20Setup%20-%20Gurad%20Against%20Broken%20Cam/CamBarSetup-90.jpg
And here is the end result
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Reese%20Dual%20Cam%20Setup%20-%20Gurad%20Against%20Broken%20Cam/Shanesbreak3.jpg
However not to fear, those issues can be adjusted out of in most all cases. Except the guys with 8” wide frame and ball coupler on top. That is one tough combo. Reese does not point out those 2 binding issue well in there instructions. However a few years ago a number of us worked thru the issues here on the forum and trying to spread the word. Trust me I have the hard A frame setup with the ball coupler on top and both times I have been able to adjust out of it on 2 TT, and 2 TV’s. You can go to 74 degree left turn and not do any damage. At about 76 to 78 you are going to rip of a chunk in the hitch head from a trunnion lug hit against the ball nut. Or crunch a TV tail light in the LP tanks or worse the TT.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Reese%20Dual%20Cam%20Setup%20-%20Gurad%20Against%20Broken%20Cam/74degturnTTandTV-Top.jpg
So the trunnion WD bars need to be set up on an angle to the frame or else other issues will come. Since the cam is round and the WD bar V finds home on that diameter, and the WD is pushing out of the hitch head I can’t see the breakaway friction being affected by the angle it is on. 7 links or 6 links in Sinton case. I may have missed a force direction but I’m not seeing it right now. The unique thing with the DC is, as sway forces get large enough to break the static friction lock free and start to move the WD bar, the WD bar raises up the cam and creates more WD tension helping over come the loss of sliding friction and generate more friction from the increased load. That is unique to the DC where Equal-I-zer is only constant WD bar loading when the sway forces overcome the hitch. And the friction hold actually goes down slightly when the Equal-I-zer WD bars is sliding. The key to both hitches is to have a rig setup that does not break free the initial friction lock.
Hope this helps
John
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JBarca
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03/03/10 09:33pm |
Towing
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RE: Swapping out Reese HP DC for Equalizer question
So the question is: What does 200# more tongue weight do to the friction lock of the Reese DC? Is that extra 200# a key player in my setup and partly what Sinton is lacking?John, the amount of friction force which can be generated by the DC is not directly affected by tongue weight. As indicated in your calculations, it is the WD bar loading which directly affects the friction.
However, if you increase/decrease the tongue weight and your objective is to keep the TV's front axle load at its unhitched value, you must increase/decrease the WD bar load by the same percentage. If you increase the tongue weight from 1200# to 1400# (16.7% increase), you would need to increase the WD bar load by 16.7% and the DC friction forces would increase by 16.7%. This agrees with your result even though the magnitude of your calculated friction force increase is less than actual because you assumed the DC bar end was horizontal.
snip..
Increasing the WD bar load has a double effect: 1) it increases the DC friction force, and 2) it increases the load on the TV's front axle. In Stinton's case, both of these should give improved yaw stability.
Ron
Ron,
Thanks and yes I used the wrong wording. Typing one way, thinking another....
Tongue weight it and inself does not raise the DC holding lock as much as adjusting the WD bars with more tension to handle the higher tongue weight.
The WD bar tension however it got there is what is creating the high fricton lock. Which is what it appears Sinton has done with his 3-2-10 adjustments.
For those vechile that adjust the front end back to unhithced weight with WD, adding tongue weight and adjusting back to zero gain or loss on the TV front end will produce more DC friction.
Thanks
John
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JBarca
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03/03/10 08:45pm |
Towing
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RE: Swapping out Reese HP DC for Equalizer question
Dan
Had another day to think about your weight situation. We can back into a few things looking at this differently.
First and updated weight chart.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Camper%20Friends%20Posts/SintonWD1.jpg
And a WD graph. I estimated your axle spacing off my TT plus 1 foot. While I use this neat spreadsheet a lot sorting out what is going where, Ron Gratz is the creator and he gave this to me a number of years ago. So he gets the credit for the raw sheet.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Camper%20Friends%20Posts/SintonWDgraph.jpg
Now here is the new thoughts. I’m assuming you did not add any gear inside the TT. Correct? And you left the fresh water dumped. All 50 gallons of it. Right?
Well the scales weigth indicate just that on the TT. Here is how I backed into this. This is your rig on 2-27-10 with the fresh water full. Remember I said it looked like the fresh tank which is 50 gallon and 415# was about 1/2 way between tow ball and TT axles. And as such 50% of the weight would go to the ball and 50% (207.5#) would go to the TT axles.
http://i49.tinypic.com/1zdrpso.jpg
OK armed with that I looked at the TT axle weight loss with no WD bars engaged and sure enough between 2-27 and the 3-2-10 weights the TT axles where 194# lighter. So that tells me you dumped the water.
Now in your latest setup of 3-2-10 you readjusted the hitch. And while we are missing a unhitched truck weight I can see you are a lot more aggressive on the WD. Again just looking at the TT axle weight gain from WD. On 2-27 the WD transferred 160# to the TT axles and now on 3-2 you transferred 314#. Just about double. Yet your tongue weight is 208 pounds lighter. I’m still thinking your present tongue weight is in the 1,200# area no water. The TT axles are showing this between the 2 set of weights.
So now let’s go back to what I was saying about increased DC breakaway friction from increase tongue weight and increased WD bar loading. Well you did not increase the tongue weight but you did increase the WD bar loading. And from the way I’m seeing it on the WD graph I interpolated out to get a TT axle weight gain of 314# with a 1,200# tongue weight, you are actually overdriving the truck front end below unhitched weight. Unless I goofed this lookup on the graph you have tensioned the WD bars to around 1,350# each to get 314# transferred back to the TT axles. You only needed approximately 1,100# WD loading for a 1,200# tongue weight to get the TV front axle back to unhitched.
OK so what does this all mean? The truck weight can be semi close using your 2-27 unhitched weight. The truck was not a lot different in weight, you just cranked up on the WD that much more. You could be in that 180# more upfront TV axle weight range for real.
So playing this out, If you are loading up your WD bars to 1,350# each that comes out to be around a 1,000# breakaway friction lock on each DC WD bar. Or a 2,000# DC friction lock, in the dry non lubed state.
Before on 2-27 your where 120# light on the front axle and on 3-2 you are 180# heavy. Well that changed the DC friction lock from approx 800# WD bar loading to now 1,350# wd bar loading. Or a DC friction lock of about 1,200# to now 2,000# or a 66% increase is DC holding force in the dry state.
Now you put Vaseoline on the cams and that cuts some of the friction. Maybe you cut it in 1/2 . So that means in stead of 66% more holding power you are 33% more holding power.
Since the rig handled the best it ever has it appears to line up with more DC holding force due to increased WD bar loading and that you shifted more weight up front that may have made your handling better. You are however over driving the front end it appears. I do not know Dodge front end suspension enough to make a call on that. The last Dodge owners manual stated that WD to be set to not exceeded the axle rating which was sort of shocking. This was out of a 2007 manual. Page 394
Weight-Distributing Hitch
A weight-distributing system works by applying leverage through spring (load) bars. They are typically used for heavier loads, to distribute trailer tongue weight to the tow vehicle’s front axle and the trailer axel(s).
When used in accordance with the manufacturers’ directions, it provides for a more level ride, offering more consistent steering and brake control thereby enhancing towing safety. The addition of a friction hydraulic sway control also dampens sway caused by traffic and crosswinds and contributes positively to tow vehicle and trailer stability.
Trailer sway control and a weight distributing (load equalizing) hitch are recommended for heavier Tongue Weights (TW) and may be required depending on Vehicle and Trailer configuration loading to comply with gross axle weight rating (GAWR)requirements.
Source: http://www.dodge.com/en/owners/manuals/index.html
So I looked up your 2005. Page 295 says this
NOTE: When towing a trailer, the following requirements must be adhered to:
* GCWR must not be exceeded
* Total weight must be distributed between the tow vehicle and the trailer such that the following four (4) ratings are not exceeded:
1. GVWR
2. GTW
3. Tongue weight rating for the trailer hitch utilized (This requirement may limit the ability to always achieve the 10% to 15% range of tongue weight (15% to 25% for a 5th Wheel style trailer as a percentage of total trailer weight.)
4. GAWR ratings
So Dodge seems to allow the front end to be within it’s rating. But I do not know how longer term steering components will take it. Maybe some of the guys on the Dodge forums can give a better indication of that.
I have not been able the figure out your receiver situation. The weigth is moving, TT axles are gaining and so is the front axle. So it is working, odd that the rear truck fenders are still at 40” which is where they where on the 2-27 weighs as well. Don’t know what to say on that one. If wanted we can measure the twist angle of the receiver tube and see if you are in acceptable limits. You said it was Class V. Did you see an actual sticker on it or better yet a WD tongue weight rating? The only thing I could find in your manual was Class VI and 1,200# tongue weight. Page 295.
If that is the rating, it can handle your tongue weight. However I really do not know how it will handle the overdriving of the TV front end. Again in Dodge world that “might” have compensated with a heavier receiver to allow overdrive of the front end weights up to GAWR. Don’t know. I’m a GM and Ford guy. Learning Dodge thru fellow campers.
So in looking at all this, your better control points to increased DC holding friction and better loading on the TV front end. Dry on the WD bar and cam is the best it will get. Don’t get to carried away with the Vaseline. Going light on the Vaseline will help the noises and some wear but will lower the holding friction. It is a trade off and experiment in how much is too much. Doing front and rear tire pressure tests in 5 psi may help create some more stability.
By unloading the rear of the truck and adding more to the front "might" allow the rear to break traction in wet conditions where the TT is pushing the truck. So heads up on that to not get too carried away on the WD either.
Hope this helps
John
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JBarca
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03/03/10 08:39pm |
Towing
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RE: Swapping out Reese HP DC for Equalizer question
The adjustments made today were:
1. Moved the hitch head forward to give me 9 1/2" on the back of the trunion vs. the 11" before.
2. Went from 7 links to 6 links.
3. TV measurements were:
Front before: 40"
Rear before: 41 3/4"
Front after: 39 1/2"
Rear after: 40"
By making those changes we ended up being about 1/4-1/2" higher on the ball than before, but ended up pretty much spreading the weight along the TV.
JBarca - The tires on the TV are BG Goodrich Rugged Trail T/A 265/70/R17, E rated tires. Front is at 65 PSI, Rear 75 PSI. The rims are the standard chromed.
The tires on the TT are HIWAY Master 225/75R15, D rated at 65 PSI.
Ron Gratz - In your post you stated "Reese 2000: Re-measure front and rear wheel well reference points (vehicle should settle evenly, within about 1/2inch). If front has settled more than rear, increase the number of chain links between yoke hook and spring bar. If there are no more links, the angle of the head assembly must be decreased." Not sure what the Reese 2000 is, but I got the Reese HP DC hitch early 2006. Does that help?
Dan
A quick note. Sorry ran out of time tonight but something is not adding up and need you to clarify a few things before I draw too many conclusions.
See your fender numbers above in red. What are the Before numbers? Truck unhitched? I’m assuming the after is with WD engaged and your last adjustments. Yes/No?
Now the bigger thing… See this chart and look for an error or tell me that you went and refilled the fresh tank. Since you where not able to get a truck unhitched weight due to scale traffic I had to use Saturdays unhitched truck weight to calculate TT tongue weight and WD transfer. Some how you now have a 1,340# tongue weight again. Now those 2 sticks of lumber are not that much. But what else changed in the truck? Diesel Fuel? Fuel changes the weights. How close where you? Diesel is around 7.2# ish per gallon pending formulation.
If you still dumped the water on the 3-2-10 scale weights then the truck has to be heavier for some reason. I can see scale error in the numbers, Like +- 40# or so but 50 gallons of water is 415# of water and the numbers are to big of an error. Check your weight slips against my spread sheet.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Camper%20Friends%20Posts/SintonWD.jpg
Since the rig tows better you changed something to the positive and you are using Vaseline lubed cams. So it would be good to figure out what you changed so you can expand on it. A Swag is you have more WD to the front, that creates more DC friction and provides more holding power.
Also please check the “after” WD engaged, fender heights of the 2-27-10 weighing and the 3-2-10 weight. The weight is moving but the rear of the truck is not and the TT axles are gaining. Before I jump to the conclusion your are having some receiver wind up issues lets confirm the setup
I’m assuming when you went to 6 links in tension you also tracked the truck and reset the DC? Yes/No?
And the TT nose height. Are you level, Nose down or nose up?
Speed. Your monster CTD has plenty of get up and go. Above 60MPH the wind drag on the trailer goes up quick. You have enough engine to pull it, but the air forces are going up and still working on the rig stability. It seems right now your rig setup has a critical speed somewhere in the 65mph range. When you start going above this point the system starts become unstable. It is amazing 68 to 65 tamed it out. Good. I myself tow in the 60 mph area so I’m not pushing the 65 to 70 as a normal tow speed so I can’t comment on that to much. The rig has ended up there due to circumstances but not a lot of tow time.
The tires, OK they are not on the problem child list. More psi experiment may yield some more stability for future tweaks.
The Reese 2000 thing. That is Reese WD transfer setup, not the vintage of hitch. Reese changed there tune finally to catch up with the new truck suspensions and what the auto makers have been say for a long time on the front ends of there trucks. Trust me, GM never started putting anything in there manual until 2004. I had a 2003 K2500 and 52 pages of post later we broke the myth that a K2500 with torsion bar front suspension will not squat equal… And then Equal-I-zer finally acknowledge it and so did Reese. Draw-Tite for years has said 3/4 and 1 ton truck may not compress below unhitched with proper WD.
Before I give you a conclusion need to sort out the truck and TT tongue weights.
Thanks
John
PS. Ron and JM, Thanks, I will get back to your questions on Wednesday. Thanks.
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JBarca
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03/02/10 09:52pm |
Towing
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RE: Swapping out Reese HP DC for Equalizer question
Hi JMtamden
Sinton did go to the scales to start with. In case you missed then see here
He ran into issues on Sunday he has not made it back to the scales since his last adjustments. He did report he was going to go back when the wind died down and time came available.
This one is a puzzler. Tires, pressures and maybe suspenion are the still floating to the top for me.
He has the hitch setup in an effective mannor, other then I would of used 6 links under tension and less head tilt, he used 7 links and more head tilt. 2 ways to skin a cat. The WD effect can be created thru both setups.
To just show this, here is my hitch on 1,200# WD bars, 1,200# tongue and my Ford 1,250# WD reciever. Still with the hi rise ball. We must have that hi rise ball to not create DC hitch binding in turns with a 6" frame and the ball coupler on top. If you have a 5" frame and ball coupler on top, then can use the standard height ball.
1,200# WD bars, 1,200# tongue. 6 links under tension. Still have good DC clearance and trunnion lugs up front do not hit frame in turns.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Hitch%20Setup/F350HitchedwithWD.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Hitch%20Setup/F350HitchedwithWDTTangle.jpg
And now, 1,400# tongue, 1,700# bars, new Towbeast reciever using 7 links under tension. 6 is way to much force in this case due to the heavier WD bar.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Hitch%20Setup/F350andTowbeast.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Hitch%20Setup/F350hiriseball.jpg
And while we are at it... Here is 1,200# tongue, 1,200# WD bars, 5 links under tension, standard height ball and 5" frame with ball coupler on top.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Hitch%20Setup/Reesehitchwithcaptions.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Sunline%20Camper/HPDConT2499.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Sunline%20Camper/2003SuburbanandT2499.jpg
And that K2500 Suburban rig was rock solid until the day I put new Michelan LT LTX tires on it. That when the tire stiffness found the edge of the DC and 30mph cross winds. 26 ft TT, 130" WB, 3/4 ton SUV, 15% tongue weght TT. More pressure helped but I know I was pushing my luck. If I had not sold the camper and the truck, the tires would of been traded. Put that same tire on a F250 and air em up, not the same issue. Wheel base in that case helped the tire. I have a camping buddy who swears by those tires, while I swear at them.... Wheelbase, it makes a difference.
John
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JBarca
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03/01/10 09:53pm |
Towing
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RE: Swapping out Reese HP DC for Equalizer question
To Ron Gratz
Ron, since you now following this post, can you double check my assumptions. Sinton’s TT and mine are similar. He has a little more wheelbase then I and 2 foot longer TT. I have 2 stage rear suspension where he has one stage. He has set hitch up correctly I feel other then I would of used 6 links under tension and less head tilt, he used 7 links and more head tilt however that difference should not shift the hitch effectivness. End result is his truck front end is back close to unhitched height at least. He is getting the weights when he can get back out.
Tires and truck suspension are in this mix and they are dynamic factors to say the least. However there is one that maybe you can assist me with rule in or rule out.
Sinton now has approx a 1,200# tongue weight since he dumped the fresh tank. That is about 13.2% tongue weight for his TT using 1,200# WD bars. I’m running 15% and 1,400# tongue using 1,700# bars. I do have some bed weight aft of the rear axle the hitch is working against (~ 100#). My receiver and hitch is rated for 1,700# WD.
So the question is: What does 200# more tongue weight do to the friction lock of the Reese DC? Is that extra 200# a key player in my setup and partly what Sinton is lacking?
Here is how I backed into this. Using 0.74 for steel on steel dry coef of friction and a WD bar loading of 1,250# each bar on my rig to line up with a 1,400# tongue, that is a total friction lock of 925#/WD bar holding power. If I drop my tongue weight to 1,200#, that comes out to around 1,080# bar loading each bar, that is a friction lock of 799# per WD bar.
I used your old WD loading spreadsheet to come up with the spring bar forces when the front axle returns to 0. I have not taken into account that the DC is sliding up hill. I just used true horizontal break away friction. And I have not discounted contamination on the cams reducing the cof of friction. And I have not added the increased spring bar force when the DC breaks free and starts riding up the cam. I’m just trying to get a close estimate to the extra breakaway friction forces that 200# more tongue weigth will add.
So if I did this right, a 1,400# tonuge will have a 1,850# breakaway friction lock and a 1,200# tongue will have a 1,598# breakaway friction lock.
For a 200# increase in tongue weight, the DC friction lock will rise 126# each bar for 252# more holding force the hitch has against sway forces. And in % wise, the difference between a 1,200# tongue and a 1,400# tongue the DC break away holding force is about 16% more friction holding power. Do you concur?
From the Pull Rite post here is my TT measurements.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/F350%20and%20TT/T310andD350Dim.jpg
I’m using 28.5” as the effective WD bar length. Rear overhang is 65”
I do not know if that 16% less DC holding power is a big player in Sinton’s issue but he has 2 foot more TT length, tire and suspension factors that play in here too. He also has about 4" more wheel base.
Thanks
John
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JBarca
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03/01/10 09:16pm |
Towing
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RE: Swapping out Reese HP DC for Equalizer question
Sinton,
I have an Equalizer 12000/1200 and have towed my 30 foot trailer in gusty crosswinds with 18 wheelers upwind. Bow wave, then the sudden no wind condition, then the wind again and it is almost rock steady in towing and that at 30 mph winds with gusts higher. So, good towing can be acheived.
Also, important is your perception and expectation of what is swayless towing. In wind there will be some minor wiggle stuff, but far far from any kind of constant corrections and while knuckle driving.
snip..
You have plenty of truck and a hitch that many use and like. Keep at it and you will get it dialed in. You may want to go with better rear truck shocks and a sway bar if your truck did not come with it. Good luck.
Hi jmtandem
Trying to help Sinton (Dan) here and since you have a Dodge can you provide some details on your rig.
1. I see in your sig you have the 1 ton Dually unless I misread it. Does it have helper springs on the back and when you are setup with the camper, does the truck kiss the helper springs? I have found on mine that when the back of the truck just touches the helper springs the stability is better then being higher up in the rear suspension. The front end then is about 75# maybe most 100# light but the added stability in the back compensates. That may be occurring on yours too, don’t know. Dan does not have the 2 stage rear leafs so he cannot use that trick.
2. Tires, I know your tires are for a dually but what brand/size are they? And what pressure do you run in the front and back? The dully is more stable most times then single rear drive must it is starting place wiht Dodge suspension.
Your comment about the rear sway bar. Good point. If the back of the truck has a fair amount of left to right rock in it naturally, it will be harder to maintain stability. I’m not Dodge fluent so I can’t speak to that suspension.
Edit:
H'mm, Would the Road Master active suspsnion help in this case? http://www.activesuspension.com/ The Excursion guys with that Ford monster spacer block on the rear axle and alxe wrap gives them fits. The RAS tones it down.
Thanks
John
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JBarca
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03/01/10 10:27am |
Towing
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RE: Swapping out Reese HP DC for Equalizer question
Hi Dan
What brand and size tires do you have?
At 55 MPH on the two way road with opposing traffic we noticed a lot of sway due to the wind hitting us directly on the side of the TT. When we got to an area partly sheltered from the wind it wasn't noticeable and towed nicely.
The turns we made in/about town and in the sheltered areas were about the same as yesterday, pretty quiet as compared to before starting this. I hadn't greased the trunions nor put Vaseline on the DC yet since I just left it hitched up overnight.
In the open areas with the winds hitting from the sides and rear, the TT was a bear to tow. On the open road I didn't get above 67 MPH due to the sway, slowing down to 64 MPH made a big difference in the sway in those areas.
The scales will help at least show us where your at. Your TT balance at around 13% with the water dumped and your within the WD bars etc. It not bad balance but I do not know if 15% is going to cure. It will help but may not cure.
The tires may be playing a role here. To maximize then the best you can, this might help. With no TT, air up the front to 75 and test drive. If at around 55 to 60 mph you start getting bounce like the truck wants to hop to the left and right when you bump then this points to they are too hard. Back down 5 psi to 70. If the bounce goes away, then try 70 psi on the front when towing. The rear can go to 80 when towing, may jar your teeth when not. I’m assuming you have load range LT–E
Tire rims. Are you running the stock width tires on the stock width rims or running wider tires on the stock rims? Wider tire on smaller rim might not hold the stiffness. Tires can make or break these ultra high friction hitches.
Speed. Yes speed is a factor. You mentioned 55 was a bear in that one situation. Not good. And you said you slowed down to 64 from 67 to help the other area. If your running and have stability issues at 55, then higher speeds will have issues as well pending the situation.
Your doing the right things. Your rig and mine are not that much different. I have 156.5 wheel base, 1 ton suspension, 15% tongue weight (1,400#), 9200# TT, 32 feet, Continental Conti Trac tires. My truck hitched weighs 9,360# for a combined weight of 17,040. Your rig is I think 160.5 wheelbase, 3/4 ton suspension well within it ratings, 13.2% estimated tongue no water (1,200#) on ~ 8,900# TT, 34 feet, do not know tires, truck hitched = 8,860 for a combined weight of 16,680 before you dumped the water. Water takes off 415#.
However your combo is not dialing in. I know I’m stable in 30mph cross wind doing 55 to 60MPH. I do not push it any more then that normally on purpose. Ohio is a 55 mph towing state. Your rig has a more blunt front nose, mine is tapered and it helps. The wind catches it different but you can't change that.
See here
http://i47.tinypic.com/2zhgvfb.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Hitch%20Setup/Hitch%20Setup%20Manual/Dcstop.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/F350%20and%20TT/F350withT310SR.jpg
Get the scaled weights and that may help shed some light on this. I’ll crunch some numbers on what 200# more tongue weight does to added friction. My truck is a little heavier due to bed weight but that should not be affecting you that much.
The 200# more tongue is a difference between yours and mine plus your 2 foot longer. But you where at 1400# TW just the hitch but was not optimized in setup. So setup helped but has not yet cured. I have more DC friction, but you have a little more wheel base and longer camper.
Wish you where closer. We could hook up my truck and see if the tire brand changed this issue. The Reese DC and the Equal-I-zer are both good tools but they do not solve every towing problem. And switching to Equalizer is not going to help in your case. Tires and the 13% tongue weigth right now are all that is floating to the top right now. I know in my case that when I switched trucks with this camper if the longer wheel base and stiffer suspension did not give me back the stability I knew was possible from my other camper, then a Pullrite or Propride would be in my future.
Get the weights and lets regroup. And I’m curious on the tires/pressure test also.
John
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JBarca
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02/28/10 10:05pm |
Towing
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RE: Swapping out Reese HP DC for Equalizer question
Dan
You have been one hard working guy today. You have done good!!! WOW you turned all this around in 2 days. Super!
This pic shows good fender heights after your hitched up. The true test now is the scales. Since you dumped the water the tongue weight changed. Today you have the truck front down further and the back is up higher. This is good. It puts more load on the WD bars which creates more friction to help hold the lock. Plus the front end may be happier. However you also changed tongue weight by about 200# so again so it may cancel it out, scales will confirm.
http://i47.tinypic.com/2zhgvfb.jpg
Keep and eye on the fender heights and do check them again when you come off the scales. Then you have fender heights per scales weights. It is not uncommon to have fender heights change +- 1/8” just driving around the block. That can be the springs settling. I know on GM and Ford it works that way.
The grease: Your hitch will last longer and make less noise
Do grease the tow ball. Put a baggie over the ball when you unhitch or else… Mine seems to have a magnetic attraction to my pant legs… the bag cannot get on fast enough
Do grease the top and bottom trunnion lugs and sockets.
Do not grease the DC area.
However with your 1,200# tongue weight you can use some Vaseline to quite down the DC noise like night and day. I use it and Reese states it is OK on heavier tongues. However it does decrease the cam holding power. You may never find it until you find the edge of the DC on setup. But it is there and it does slightly decrease the holding power. I had it happen to me on my prior TT and K2500 Suburban when I changed brand LT tires. By wiping the Vaseline off I could feel the difference but the tire issue was way too bad still. And that was also when I found out the front tire pressure and the DC are interrelated in many cases. If the front tires are too soft, they flex in the side walls. When a wind gust hits the TT, the DC is holding it. If the front of the truck flexes in the tire side walls, it can break the DC lock free. Once I got the rig stable again I could add the Vaseline back on.
I would say this. Grease the ball and trunnion sockets. I use Reese Ball lube, it is just white grease in a tub with a screw on cap. It is convenient but any grease will work.
http://www.etrailer.com/p-58117/White-Grease-Hitch-Ball-Lube.html When it gets gritty wipe it off and put new on.
Try the cams the way you have them now, dry. See how it tows. You will get grinding fillings but once they wear in it slows down. Oh and for sure, keep the same WD bar now on the same side all the time. They will be a wear in matched set. Once you find you have it stable, then try some Vaseline on the cams. It will further help the wear and noise. If you still have good performance then keep using it. In extra heavy winds if needed, pull over and wipe it off if things get bad.
You are now armed with how to tweak this rig in. You changed a lot of things at once as you had to get to the starting point of being optimized in all areas. From here foward are a few tweaks more if you need them. May not need any if she is towing well.
1. Yes keep an eye on the DC for being dead centered. If that one side is not right, then reset. Heavy bed loads and the water in the tank may shift this and need a ret-weak.
2. Tire pressure. Your 65 front and 75 rear is working. That may be the perfect setup. You can experiment with 5 psi. Front 70, rear 75, then front 70 rear 80. And then back to 65/75. This is tire brand/size and truck dependent of what is perfect. However I do feel the 65 psi front and 75 psi rear helped this go around.
3. The front WD. This one keep an eye it. The scales will confirm your loading. If you need a little more control it is an experiment to go 1 more tooth of tilt to the rear (more weight to the front) pending what the scales say. 1 less tooth, towards truck, (less weight up front) may make the truck slightly better ride but DC holding lock may be negative. It is an experiment.
3/4 and 1 tons per brand have slightly different tweaks. My F350 is more stable if I just let the back of the truck kiss the helper springs. The front is then about 75# light but when I hit that 2 stage suspension the whole back of the truck is more solid. I started at unhitched weight in front and the back was up higher in the suspension still in 1st stage. Was not as stable and ride as smooth. Since you do not have helper springs that tip will not help you but is was why I asked about if you had them.
Go have fun camping and let us know how it goes. It sounds like you have had a global shift to more stability. And the best part, you now know what you changed to make it better and why.
You did really great at this. You gave us a lot to work with and then you went and did it!. WOW
Glad this helped and glad to help more if needed.
John
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JBarca
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02/27/10 09:33pm |
Towing
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