JEBar
Willow Springs, NC
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Joined: 10/27/2002
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Offroad Enthusiast ... couldn't agree more .... the folks here have been most helpful ... Jim
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gstanton
Oakland, MD and Tierra Verde, FL
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Joined: 01/25/2002
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Well, I agree with everyone that the TT is better. We are on our 3rd with a 1/2 T trucks and have been cross country and all around Canada several times. I would not undertake those kiknd of trips without the gas can, floor jack, generator, air compressor, etc... that ride in the back of the truck. One thing not mentioned is the "Bigger MUST be better
" mentality. Reading Motorhome and Trailer Life magazines would make one think that we must all move to the bigger units!
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JJLJR
Toms River
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Joined: 04/11/2001
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I just had to add my "2 cents". I have agonized over the same question myself and have reached the conclusion that we will stay with a TT over a 5th Wheel for several reasons, all of which have been posted: saves the truck bed for "stuff"; is lighter that a 5vr, design for design; new hitch designs can allow the unit to tow just as well as a 5vr given the lower profile; no internal stairs; equal ceiling height throughout; and, better floorplan choices. In addition, I am convinced that a well made TT will cost and weigh less than a comparable 5vr. In addition, I do not feel that a TT is any harder to set up than a 5vr. I have a power jack and a Reese Dual Cam Sway Control set up and I can do it just as fast as my son-in-law with a 5vr.
John L - Toms River, NJ
2003 Savana G2500 8 Passenger Van, 6.0 V8, 3.73 Rear, Factory Tow Pkg - 2007 Sprinter Copper Canyon 2591RBS 27.7' - Reese Dual Cam Sway
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Jack B. Nimble
San Francisco Bay Area
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Joined: 11/28/2002
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Thank you Maurice for covering very well what I have long believed to be true about the difference in towing between a TT and a 5er.
I know where Kevin's dealership is but I don't have enough info to say if he is one of the good guys or just a wolf in sheeps' clothing. I do know that Trailerites with some mileage on them tend to discount what they hear from dealers.
Kevin is entitled to his opinion and he may be stating what he believes is true. However, he is in a position to strongly influence newbie buyers. I believe it is all too easy to move folks into a high profit rig when the excitment of a new trailer overcomes common sense.
I no longer drive my F350 to a dealership when looking over new trailers. If I do, salesmen automatically direct me to the big TTs and 5ers with the comment that "You can tow anything on the lot with that truck". They never ask me what my tow rating is or how much stuff I plan to take along or if I'm ok having my rig at or above the GCWR. Such technical points are considered to be outside of the sales process.
Setting up a good truck - trailer - owner relationship should be done like porcupines make love, VERY CAREFULLY.
Jack
F350 / 460
Banks Power Pack
Hensley Arrow
Nash 19B
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Meeks
Elk Grove, CA USof A
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Joined: 01/31/2002
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Maurice,
Ok. So I used a poor choice of words when saying "fact". My "simple unsubstantiated opinion" is based on feedback from our customer's, research,and my own personal experience.
In addition, I was speaking of an average travel trailer with a typical weight distribution hitch vs an average 5th wheel with a typical bed mounted 5th wheel hitch both of equal overall length. However, I do have a few facts which I beleive support my opinion;
Fact#1:
People are not allowed in a trailer coach while it is being towed. (§21712[d] VC) (Source: California Department of Motor Vehicles Code Book)
Fact#2:
People are allowed in a properly equipped fifth-wheel trailer coach (§21712 [f] VC). (Source: California Department of Motor Vehicles Code Book)
Why is this a law in California and many other states? I suspect it is because there is less likelihood of a 5th wheel pin box coming unattatched from the back of a tow vehicle then there is of a ball mounted travel trailer. I also suspect that the engineers for the state determined that the 5th wheel on average offers more stability when towing than the travel trailer.
Furthermore, I challenge you to prove that your 34' Airstream has a shorter turning radius than a 34' 5th wheel. It does not because the total length of your Airstream behind your pick up is substantially longer than it would be if you had an equal length 5th wheel. And your turning radius is more limited with a ball mount travel trailer than with a 5th wheel hitch. To prove this try hooking up your Airstream to your pick up by backing up at a 90 degree angle. I suspect you can't because your pick up will clip either the corner of your trailer or the trailer tongue.
Kevin
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Bigdog
silverdale wa.
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Joined: 06/28/2002
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I have a TT because I love my Suburban. I have four grandkids and a stepson and it's a little hard to fit them in even a CC P/U. Besides I have yet to find a fiver built that I can sleep all of them in if I need to, that is, w/o setting them up on the table,Etc. I am looking for a 32'-33' two bedroom TT w/slide for more extended travel 'cuz the other half is working for the schools now too.
GO COUGARS
2001 Ford 7.3L PSD Excursion
Ride Rite air bags
AFE Stage 1
4"MBRP exh
Hellwig rear sway bar
DP Tuner
2005 Keystone COUGAR 304BHS
Tekonsha Prodigy
1200 Equalizer hitch
2000 Thomas school bus (RETIRED !!! )
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RoadKingMoe
Dayton OH
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Joined: 11/12/2002
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Kevin,
Those facts mean nothing to me. I don't care whether California or other states allow people in a towed vehicle. They aren't going to be in one of mine, regardless of what it is.
I've been on my feet in a motorhome, hitting the frig for a drink, when the driver had to slam on brakes to avoid hitting an a*****e that cut him off. Fortunately, I was far enough back that I didn't sail through the windshield, but I did wind up with broken ribs from hitting the corner of the dinette.
Lucille Ball, in the movie, "The Long, Long Trailer," illustrates the practicality of passengers in a towed vehicle. As a driver, I wouldn't be oblivious as Desi was, I'd be too overly concerned about the passengers I couldn't see in the event I needed to make a hard turn or brake hard.
And it's the more robust coupling of the fifth wheel, and the much heavier hitch weight that doesn't go negative on the pin, is the reason for allowing occupants anyway.
If you understood multi-axle trailers, you'd understand that in a turn, the trailer is pivoting on a point at the intersection of lines drawn across it between the front and rear wheels.
The front tires and axles are being dragged sideways one way while the rear tires and axles are being dragged sideways the other way... at least a little... and more as the angle increases. It's called scrub. At extreme angles, the tires are trying to roll off the rims, and the axles can even be offset from each other from lateral movement allowed by the springs. The frame is bending in the front toward the tow vehicle.
With the tow vehicle at a true 90 degrees there is _almost_ no forward or rearward rotation of the tires and it's all wheel drag and frame twist. This isn't so bad on wet grass or mud, but it's murder on concrete or asphalt.
Even at the 70 degree angle of the standard Pullrite (much less the 82.5 of the Hensley or the 90 degrees of the 90 degree Pullrite), you're putting tremendous sideways forces on the axles and bending force on the frame, but at 70 degrees, at least there's some forward or rearward rotation of the wheels, which can "screw" themselves sideways on the ground as they rotate, rather than being dragged sideways. I don't see a 90 degree angle between the tow vehicle and trailer as an advantage except with single axle trailers.
My Airstream is limited in turning radius more by its triple axles than by the extra length of the rear bumper pivot and tongue. That's the price I pay for the smooth ride on the highway and resistance to porpoising on bumpy roads.
The triple axles put the front and rear axles further from the point of intersection (rotation), so I can't even use the 82.5 degrees of the Hensley on pavement without stressing the trailer more than I want.
Nevertheless, with care watching the tires, I can put that big Airstream over on one side of my 18' driveway that's only six feet longer than the trailer, from a street that's no wider than the driveway. I don't believe even a tandem axle fiver would do any better, given the same care for the trailer, and possibly not as well due to its SLOW turning response.
In response to your challenge, it probably didn't occur to you how absurd it would be to try to turn any triple-axle trailer or fiver with the tow vehicle anywhere near 90 degrees to it. And it probably doesn't occur to many blissfully ignorant fiver drivers what they're doing to their tandem axle rig with the tow vehicle at 90 degrees, especially on a paved surface.
FWIW, one of the advantages of the Hensley is that it puts the tow vehicle forward enough that it can't clip the trailer body at max turn angle, nor can it hit the trailer tongue unless you turn it tight enough to bend or break the hitch. You can feel it when it reaches that point and know to back off.
You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but as someone said, you have a perceived position of authority by new buyers, if not by experienced RVers. IMHO, that imparts a responsibility to ensure what is stated as fact is indeed so.
--
Maurice
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Meeks
Elk Grove, CA USof A
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Joined: 01/31/2002
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Maurice,
I respect your opinion and can tell you are obviously a person well versed in phyics and geometry. I agree with you on traveling in the back of a rig wether it is a trailer or 5th wheel, I won't do it either!
I still prefer a 5th over a travel trailer, yet only slightly because I have a passion for all rvs (except poorly made ones). Thanks for the debate.
Kevin
p.s. You have a beautiful set up with the Ford and Airstream although I've never heard of the
brake control you use. Can you tell me more about it?
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RoadKingMoe
Dayton OH
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Joined: 11/12/2002
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Thank you, Kevin. We really love the nostalgia of the Airstream! The Jordan Research Ultima 2020 is a proportional brake controller that uses a cable attached to the brake pedal arm with the cable housing anchored to the dash in front of the pedal. The more the pedal is pressed, the more amperage is sent to the brakes. The amount of amperage is also adjustable for trailer weight and braking capability, and the amperage is displayed on the controller. You adjust the cable so trailer braking starts before the pedal has built pressure to start slowing the tow vehicle, so the trailer is always braking slightly before and slightly more than the tow vehicle... the way it should be... the trailer acting like the fletchings on an arrow to keep the rig straight.
It provides the same driver control over trailer braking we had back in the days of hydraulic controllers, which I installed more than I can begin to remember.
Installing the Jordan is a lot easier than removing the vehicle brake line from the master cylinder, installing a T fitting, running the new hydraulic line through the dash to the controller, and then having to bleed the vehicle brakes and controller, all without spilling a drop of brake fluid on the paint or interior.
One of the things we ran into when dual master cylinders came out was that there sometimes wasn't enough volume displaced by the master cylinder piston used for the controller to reliably activate the controller, before the other piston met maximum resistance. The other problem with hydraulic controllers was the liability issue... probably the biggest problem.
I believe Jordan has a new website, but I can't remember the URL. AFAIK, they're only sold from him, but I could be wrong about that. When I call, I'm talking to the president of the company. His service has been great!
It really boils down to whether you want to be in control of the trailer brakes, or trust a box of electronics, which has to sense how hard the tow vehicle is decelerating (either with a pendulum which has to be leveled or a "space-age" solid state accelerometer) to decide how much to apply the trailer brakes, and is hence always has the trailer following the tow vehicle.
FWIW, the Prodigy is uses the brake light wire, not only to ignore tow vehicle lifted throttle/no brake deceleration that can wear out trailer brakes with other inertia controllers, but also to not fall behind on initial brake application. It does however follow the tow vehicle after initial application, and has to blindly evaluate what the accelerometer senses to determine if it is deceleration, or the truck hitting a bump or getting hit by a gust of wind.
Nevertheless, the Prodigy is easy to install, and "good enough" for most owners, especially those who've never had the pleasure of using a hydraulic controller or a Jordan. Former time-based or other inertia owners think the Prodigy is the best thing since sliced bread! I can understand why.
The Jordan simply brakes the trailer as much as the driver tells it to by how much he presses the brake pedal. Wow! What a concept!
*This Message was edited on 13-Jan-03 03:25 PM by RoadKingMoe*
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RVER
West of Boston, MA
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Joined: 10/29/2000
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I would buy a 5th wheel if i were you. you have a good sized truck so a 5th wheel of up to about 34 ft will be easily pulled by your truck and it is more stable. why? because the hitch is IN your truck over the rear axle instead of behind the truck where it can sway more etc. some people say when the 5th wheel hitch and trailer are well matched, they hardly know the 5th wheel is there. my brother in law bought a trailer and now is going to trade it for 5th wheel. we have a motorhome and we are considering a 5th wheel and truck which will cost us something but....
we have a motorhome and do not pull a car so we are stuck in campground unless we hook up with others like my bro in law.
best of luck and Enjoy the View. it is a great way to tavel.
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