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Topic: 50 amp R/V outlet from 220 volt service?

Posted By: 13ronzo on 12/04/09 07:53am

Hi,
I have a pool heater that runs on 220 volts and it is in a perfect spot to install a 50 amp outlet for my coach while parked at home. Can I tap into the 220 and get 50 amp 110 out of it? I would also put some kind of a switch so that I could only use one or the other at a time.
Thanks,
Ron


Posted By: raygreg on 12/04/09 07:57am

If the pool heater is on a 50 amp circut breaker, you sure can get RV 50 amps out of it.


Posted By: dodgebob08 on 12/04/09 07:57am

you can tap into one leg of the 220 to get 110, depends on the size of the breaker if you'll have 50 amps or not. i don't have a clue if that would be "up to code" in your area.


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Posted By: MGO BLUE on 12/04/09 08:04am

The rv 50amp is two 110 volt legs a ground and a common if your pool heater wiring is that way no problem.....I used two 30 amp breakers in the breaker box with a 30/50 adaptor.....that way I can back feed house in a hurricane jim k


Posted By: randco on 12/04/09 08:21am

13ronzo wrote:

Hi,
I have a pool heater that runs on 220 volts and it is in a perfect spot to install a 50 amp outlet for my coach while parked at home. Can I tap into the 220 and get 50 amp 110 out of it? I would also put some kind of a switch so that I could only use one or the other at a time.
Thanks,
Ron


You can tap into it but you may not be able to get 110 volts unless your service is a 4 wire system. That means 2 legs of 110 volts, one leg as a neutral, and 1 leg as a ground.

Older 220 V service was usually of the 3 wire type. 2 110 volt legs and a ground.


Posted By: smkettner on 12/04/09 08:44am

13ronzo wrote:

Can I tap into the 220 and get 50 amp 110 out of it?


If it has a full size neutral wire and ground connection then you can change the connector to a NEMA 14-50R and plug right in. Standard 50 amp is 240/120 service. By the text of your question I believe you may not fully understand the wiring.

http://www.myrv.us/electric/


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Posted By: Clieb on 12/04/09 08:54am

If you have to ask, call an electrician. They will make sure you are to code, have enough load to handle the additional amperage on the circuit, and do not burn your house down or fry yourself. Emphasis on the fry yourself.

Tapping off an existing circuit should be done only by a professional.

If you have access to the breaker panel then you can put in a GFCI breaker and wire a 50 amp receptacle. Kits are available at your local hardware store that have the proper wire size and conduit to meet code.

I am the first to try a do it yourself in an attempt to save money but there are just some things it pays to pay for.


An RV'r is someone driving a $300,000.00 Motorhome pulling a $40,000.00 car and looking for a free place to park.
2002 Itasca Horizon 36'
2009 Buick Enclave



Posted By: Deen on 12/04/09 09:27am

"An RV'r is someone driving a $300,000.00 Motorhome pulling a $40,000.00 car and looking for a free place to park."

Wal*Mart isn't exactly "free" after all we spend there stocking the MH but it's better than the alternatives!!


Posted By: NORM WADDELL on 12/04/09 09:54am

Backfeeding the house as stated
by one responder is extremely
dangerous and probably illegal.
It can backfeed UP the power company
lines, be transformed UP to a high
voltage, and KILL a linesman who
expected a safe line to work on.
Opening the house breaker to prevent
this is NOT sufficiently safe; it may
be accidently left closed, or someone
may close it. Get a qualified electrician
to install a transfer switch so the house
can be fed by the power company OR the
generator......one of these is always
DISconnected.


L NORMAN WADDELL
30 FOOT ALLEGRO
SATURN TOAD
WIFE AND 2 DOGS SUGAR BEAR & COCO BEAR


Posted By: wa8yxm on 12/04/09 10:23am

There are a couple of thoughts.. If the 50 amp outlet has FOUR WIRES, it may well be the same as an RV-50 outlet right down to the wiring

if it is a 3-wire outlet.. I would not recommend it. Though it might be possible

Many 240 devices have a 3 wire outlet the wires are L-1, l-2 and either neutral or safety ground. Often this last wire is very light weight compared to the L-1/L-2 wires

For proper RV use you need 4 wires

L-1, L-2 and Neutral all need to be 50 amp wire

Safety Ground.. I'd like it to be 50 amp capable too but often they use smalelr wire here.


Home is where I park it.
Kenwood TS-2000 housed in a 2005 Damon Intruder 377



Posted By: wallynm on 12/04/09 10:27am

MH 50 amp is two hots, neutral and a ground. Do not know how your pool heater is wired. My hot tub is a 60 amp four wire system. Make sure you understanding the wiring protocol.

RV ELECTRIC SERVICE

13ronzo wrote:

Hi,
I have a pool heater that runs on 220 volts and it is in a perfect spot to install a 50 amp outlet for my coach while parked at home. Can I tap into the 220 and get 50 amp 110 out of it? I would also put some kind of a switch so that I could only use one or the other at a time.
Thanks,
Ron



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Posted By: 13ronzo on 12/04/09 11:57am

Thanks for all of the expertise. This is certainly over my head to attempt, which I knew from the outset. I wanted to know if it was possible and to know a little about the process so that I can talk to a pro about it. Thanks for all of the replies.
Ron


Posted By: Sandy & Shirley on 12/04/09 01:17pm

The key here is how many wires are going to the pool heater. Our pool filter pump is 220 volts, but only has 3 wires goign to it (2 hot leads and ground wire). You CAN NOT use the ground wire as a neutral in the RV or anywhere else.

Basically, my pool filter runs on strictly 220 volts, both hots at once.

Check the wire going to the pool heater and get a small volt meter. If you are lucky, you will have 4 wires going to the heater. one is a ground and is either unshielded or shielded in green. That one should be passed on as the ground.

If you are lucky, you will also have 3 others wires, most likely a white neutral wire and black and red hot wires. If you measure from red to white you get 110 volts, from black to white you get 110 volts, and from red to black 220 volts. If that is how you are set up, you should have no problem installing the plug, -- as long as the breaker in the house will handle it!


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Posted By: smkettner on 12/04/09 10:30pm

Even if the 240v circuit only has 30 amps and #10 wire you will still be able to get 7200 watts and would be plenty of power 95% of the time.


Posted By: Golden_HVAC on 12/05/09 02:18am

13ronzo wrote:

Thanks for all of the expertise. This is certainly over my head to attempt, which I knew from the outset. I wanted to know if it was possible and to know a little about the process so that I can talk to a pro about it. Thanks for all of the replies.
Ron


Hi,

If you had hired me to put in a 50 amp service for your RV, there are a couple of things I would look at. If there is 4 wires going to the pool equipment, then there is probably a full size neutral going to that area already, because most pool panels have a 110 volt receptacle and other things that run on 110 volts.

If not 4 wires, then is the wiring in conduit? Could I pull in a #8 white wire?

Then I could install a 125 amp rated sub-panel, and hook up the pool equipment and RV receptacle to this new panel. Or I could hook up the 50 amp RV to the pool equipment, and then "Suggest" that you are not running all three air conditioners at the same time as the pool pump and spa pump.

You have a total limit of about 12,000 watts, and the water pumps might be using up to 5,000 watts. Each air conditioner in the RV can use another 1,400 watts, and the small stuff like battery charger and TV set another 250 watts. You should be well within the 50 amp capacity of your breaker to the pool equipment.

So, Yes it can be done, and with a proper electrician, they can usually do this for a fairly low price, but you might want to call around and ask for quotes. Ask how much for an estimate, how much per hour, any truck fee, or other fees besides the labor charge. Are they going to charge you $85 an hour while they shop at Home Depot for the parts? Or bring them along to your home? Or will you pick up the 50 amp raintight RV receptacle at Home Depot, so they only need to have some #6 wire on their truck along with a few fittings.

It helps to call around to get a good price.

Fred.


Posted By: Busskipper on 12/05/09 07:51am

smkettner wrote:

13ronzo wrote:

Can I tap into the 220 and get 50 amp 110 out of it?


If it has a full size neutral wire and ground connection then you can change the connector to a NEMA 14-50R and plug right in. Standard 50 amp is 240/120 service. By the text of your question I believe you may not fully understand the wiring.

http://www.myrv.us/electric/


This is the real info to make the educated decision -- when ever I read a reply on electric I always try to be sure the OP reads this. On most of these electrical posts, some of the info is correct -- much is incorrect -- and some is just "dead" wrong. As has been stated if you are not completely sure get it done by a pro who is.

http://www.myrv.us/electric/

Really not that complicated, if you read and understand how it actually works.

BOL,


Busskipper
Maryland/Colorado
Travel Supreme 42DS04
MDX-FMCA--M&G Brake
States traveled in this Coach




Posted By: Jay58 on 12/05/09 08:05pm

A lot of usefull info in this thread. You need to know what size the wire is. What amp breaker is the wire hooked to. how long of a wire run for the installed wire. How many strands on the existing wire run. If replacing the existing wire termination with a 50 amp RV setup are you overloading the main panel. Just because the breaker panel has spaces does not mean you can safely add more. For the relatively minor cost (compaired to life limb and the persuit of happiness) pay an electrician (If the wires are the wrong size (diameter)they will need to be replaced)........JMHO


1996 HR Endeavor 37.5
230 Cumins, 6 spd. Allison
2009 Saturn Vue
Towmaster dolly
Central Florida (East Coast)



Posted By: gunny357 on 12/06/09 11:55am

NORM WADDELL wrote:

Backfeeding the house as stated
by one responder is extremely
dangerous and probably illegal.
It can backfeed UP the power company
lines, be transformed UP to a high
voltage, and KILL a linesman who
expected a safe line to work on.
Opening the house breaker to prevent
this is NOT sufficiently safe; it may
be accidently left closed, or someone
may close it. Get a qualified electrician
to install a transfer switch so the house
can be fed by the power company OR the
generator......one of these is always
DISconnected.


Norm is absolutely correct.


Very obvious that most of the other folks passing on advice do NOT know what they are talking about and following it will cause you or someone else grief.

Get an electrician to assist you with this.


Posted By: hohenwald48 on 12/06/09 02:40pm

Jay58,
What does the number of strands in the wire have to do with anything? Just wondering.


2008 Fleetwood Jamboree 25G
1999 Jeep Wrangler
100% Solar Powered Home
When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.


Posted By: cptdav on 12/06/09 02:57pm

http://www.myrv.us/electric/

This is the real info to make the educated decision -- when ever I read a reply on electric I always try to be sure the OP reads this. On most of these electrical posts, some of the info is correct -- much is incorrect -- and some is just "dead" wrong. As has been stated if you are not completely sure get it done by a pro who is.

http://www.myrv.us/electric/

Really not that complicated, if you read and understand how it actually works.

BOL,


This is the best advice so far. All electricians don't know how to wire a 50 amp rv plug. Be sure they understand you DON'T want 240 V service to the rv.

JHD


Posted By: nickelAF on 12/06/09 07:22pm

I’ve noticed the original question was he was asking for a 50 amp connection. If the RV has a 50amp umbilical he does need a 220 volt 50 amp connection. This is the same receptacle that would be used for the typical residential electric stove with oven, weatherproof of course. I won’t go into detail but the level of misunderstanding concerning 50amp RV service is very high. There are many very competent electricians that have no experience with these circuits and assume they are different.


07 Arctic Fox 31WRB
04 6.0L 4X4 Excursion




Posted By: hohenwald48 on 12/06/09 09:12pm

I think the confusion regarding a 50Amp 240Volt circuit stems from the fact that there are two kinds. There is the one that is used to run a welder or resistive heater load that is strictly a 240Volt circuit with no neutral and then there is the 50A 240/120 circuit used to feed motorhomes.

A lot folks (and some electrcians) don't understand the difference. I guess my advice would be that if you don't already know the difference, don't try to learn by hooking your MH up to it.


Posted By: smkettner on 12/07/09 09:09am

A welder might have a 6-50R or 10-50R both are 3 wire 240 volts and another wire must be pulled to connect a 14-50R for 120/240 service.


Posted By: Rich D. on 12/07/09 09:30am

nickelAF wrote:

That is the point I am trying to make. There is no difference between a welder 220v 50amp circuit and the true 50amp RV circuit. I can plug my welder, kitchen stove, or RV into same 4 pin outlet. There are some campgrounds the do imitation 50A circuits; these will function with RVs’ not welders or stoves. I am very reluctant to use this type of circuit. I would not use this type of circuit in AC season. And yes I test and I know what the type of circuit I’m going to plug into. I made up a simple device, takes a few seconds to make a check and I check before baking in to a site.


The above is misleading in that there is absolutely a difference between a 240V 50 amp welder 3-wire circuit and a 240V/120V 50 amp 4-wire circuit. The former provides 240V ONLY. The latter provides 240V or 120V. Any licensed electrician should be able to give you what you need if told to provide a 3 pole, 4 wire 240/120 volt 50 amp outlet. They are not unique to RV use or simply the correct NEMA outlet number stated previously in this post.


Rich D. Wanderlodge M450 LXi



Posted By: wny_pat on 12/04/09 11:35am

And if you don't have any idea what these guys are talking about - get a professional electrican.


“All journeys have secret destinations of which the traveler is unaware.”


Posted By: smkettner on 12/06/09 10:17pm

I cannot imagine what the confusion is with connecting a NEMA 14-50R. Very standard connector should be a slam dunk for any electrician. Not exactly difficult for a homeowner either.

Now a 30 amp may cause confusion as they are not as common outside the RV world.


Posted By: nickelAF on 12/06/09 10:18pm

That is the point I am trying to make. There is no difference between a welder 220v 50amp circuit and the true 50amp RV circuit. I can plug my welder, kitchen stove, or RV into same 4 pin outlet. There are some campgrounds the do imitation 50A circuits; these will function with RVs’ not welders or stoves. I am very reluctant to use this type of circuit. I would not use this type of circuit in AC season. And yes I test and I know what the type of circuit I’m going to plug into. I made up a simple device, takes a few seconds to make a check and I check before baking in to a site.


Posted By: nickelAF on 12/07/09 10:14am

Rich D. wrote:

nickelAF wrote:

That is the point I am trying to make. There is no difference between a welder 220v 50amp circuit and the true 50amp RV circuit. I can plug my welder, kitchen stove, or RV into same 4 pin outlet. There are some campgrounds the do imitation 50A circuits; these will function with RVs’ not welders or stoves. I am very reluctant to use this type of circuit. I would not use this type of circuit in AC season. And yes I test and I know what the type of circuit I’m going to plug into. I made up a simple device, takes a few seconds to make a check and I check before baking in to a site.


The above is misleading in that there is absolutely a difference between a 240V 50 amp welder 3-wire circuit and a 240V/120V 50 amp 4-wire circuit. The former provides 240V ONLY. The latter provides 240V or 120V. Any licensed electrician should be able to give you what you need if told to provide a 3 pole, 4 wire 240/120 volt 50 amp outlet. They are not unique to RV use or simply the correct NEMA outlet number stated previously in this post.


Hang in there Bud you figure it out sooner or later.. The 50 amp service for the welder, stove, and RV are ALL THE SAME. Now if you are wiring up a 30 year old buzz box you will have three wires, they were sans the ground, used the neutral for the ground. This was OK’ed during WWII to save wire. This later was returned to a 4 wire configuration for safety.
Oh and by the way it’s no problem to get 110 from the 3 wire configuration. Maybe a little research is in order.


Posted By: smkettner on 12/07/09 10:51am

nickelAF wrote:

The 50 amp service for the welder, stove, and RV are ALL THE SAME. Now if you are wiring up a 30 year old buzz box you will have three wires, they were sans the ground, used the neutral for the ground.


Brand new welder with NEMA 6-50 style plug


Posted By: hohenwald48 on 12/14/09 10:09am

I've seen many welder circuits with no neutral installed since WWII. Just 2 hots and a safety ground. Not sure how you would get 120V out of that unless you decided to use the grounding conductor(green safety ground) for a grounded conductor(white neutral conductor).


Posted By: Tinstar on 12/14/09 12:35pm

Electrical threads are always so much fun.

Yes, No, back-feed, 3 wire, 4 wire, gauge of wire, strands of wire, 2 hots a neutral and a ground, two hots and a ground, red wire, black wire, shielded wire, non-shielded wire, bear wire, green wire, white wire, NEMA plug, 6-50R, 10-50R, 14-50R, transfer switch. 110 volt, 220 volt, imitation 50 amp circuit, 60 amp circuit, 30 amp circuit, split phase, single phase, welder circuits, stove circuits, dryer circuit, it depends.

Wow, if you were not confused before, you should be by now. I understand how it's wired and what's required but if I had to depend on RVnet's electrical threads for "how to", I could easily confuse the world and maybe burn it down.

Bottom line is like some said; "it depends".


Never pass up a chance to go somewhere


Posted By: tropical36 on 12/14/09 02:16pm

If indeed the OP has 240v, neutral and ground, then the easiest thing to do would be to install a 50amp RV outlet at this location. Then install an RV 50amp plug for the pool heater and plug in which ever you want to use. If you have a 30amp coach, then simply use a converter cord which you should be carrying on board anyway.


"We are often so caught up in our destination that we forget to appreciate the journey."

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Chassis_7.4 Vortec Engine_4L80E Tranny_slide_tag axle.

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Posted By: randco on 12/14/09 02:38pm

The problem is that we don't know if he has a 3 wire or 4 wire system. Older houses used 3 wire service for 240 V. It all depends on where you live and the county codes.

If the OP's service only has three wires he is out of luck, unless the service was run in conduit. If it was, there may be a possibility of pulling a neutral through the existing conduit. If it's already 4 wire, then it's a piece of cake.


Posted By: nickelAF on 12/14/09 05:35pm

I’m the one with the welder with 4 wire circuit. No one looking over my sholder when I’m plumbing or doing electrical work. In most cases I always meet or exceed code. I don’t tolerate having doovers well.
However. A solution to the problem if a 3 wire circuit is in place. A safety ground can provided by placing a ground rod at the base of the outlet. This is a good practice even with a 4 wire circuit if it is any distance from the source. My 50 amp RV service is in a pedestal some 100 ft from the house, I ran a 4 wire curcit and placed a ground rod at that location also.


Posted By: tropical36 on 12/14/09 06:33pm

randco wrote:

The problem is that we don't know if he has a 3 wire or 4 wire system. Older houses used 3 wire service for 240 V. It all depends on where you live and the county codes.

If the OP's service only has three wires he is out of luck, unless the service was run in conduit. If it was, there may be a possibility of pulling a neutral through the existing conduit. If it's already 4 wire, then it's a piece of cake.

You can always run an external ground, no matter how the rest is installed or just use an 8ft. rod like has been suggested.


Posted By: ShapeShifter on 12/15/09 06:44am

13ronzo wrote:

Thanks for all of the expertise. This is certainly over my head to attempt, which I knew from the outset. I wanted to know if it was possible and to know a little about the process so that I can talk to a pro about it. Thanks for all of the replies.
Ron

Getting a pro involved is a very good idea, and is the correct answer in this case. Print out and show him THIS PAGE from the excellent RV electric site provided by several other posters. That should be all the information he needs to determine what you want, and to allow him to decide what is possible and prudent for your specific situation. If that page is not enough information for him, then get a different electrician because that one doesn't know enough to be working on your wiring!

As is usual, this thread has some good information, some confusing information, and some downright bad suggestions. Electricity can seem simple on the surface, but there are lots of things to consider that are not immediately obvious to the neophyte. Just because something works, that does not make it safe in all situations. If you ever have the slightest doubt, it pays to get a professional involved.


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Posted By: CT_WANDERER on 12/15/09 08:24am

I hate to say it but I think randco hit it on the head. We don't know what the OP wiring system has. And OP is not sure either. Best to get someone that knows what he is doing to look at what OP has and what he want to do. And not to take the advice from what some are guessing should be done.


Posted By: hohenwald48 on 12/16/09 07:46pm

I don't doubt there are some welders that use a 4 wire circuit. There are also a whole lot of them (new and old) that use a 3 wire circuit. So just because it's a 240V 50A welder circuit doesn't mean it can safely be adapted to RV use.

And I'm not sure sinking a new ground rod is such a good idea either. Then the safety ground and neutral would be at different potentials and would certianly cause problems with any GFI circuits in the RV. Not sure if it would be proper according to the NEC.

Also, it's been my observation that everything in the NEC is there for a good safety reason and should be followed even if there are no code requirements to do so. ShapeShifter said it right "just because it works doesn't mean it's safe".


Posted By: randco on 12/17/09 03:27am

tropical36 wrote:

randco wrote:

The problem is that we don't know if he has a 3 wire or 4 wire system. Older houses used 3 wire service for 240 V. It all depends on where you live and the county codes.

If the OP's service only has three wires he is out of luck, unless the service was run in conduit. If it was, there may be a possibility of pulling a neutral through the existing conduit. If it's already 4 wire, then it's a piece of cake.

You can always run an external ground, no matter how the rest is installed or just use an 8ft. rod like has been suggested.

The problem is not the ground. The problem is that a 3 wire service does not have a neutral.


Posted By: NORM WADDELL on 12/17/09 06:23am

National Electric Code 250-51 states
" The earth shall not be used as the sole equipment
grounding conductor"

This makes the driving of a second ground rod, in place of
a ground wire back to the original grounding electrode (rod)
illegal. A ground wire or conduit is REQUIRED.

In the improper suggetion I refer to, ground current would have
to travel SOLEY through the earth to get to the original ground
rod. The earth may have high impedance ('resistance') and limit
the flow of ground current, preventing safety devices from operatilng.

DO NOT TAKE ELECTRICAL ADVICE FROM THIS FORUM !


Posted By: nickelAF on 12/17/09 08:22am

NORM WADDELL wrote:



DO NOT TAKE ELECTRICAL ADVICE FROM THIS FORUM !


OK, Chicken Little mindset reins supreme.
Reminds me of all the posters that said it is totally foolhardy to travel in an RV from Fort Bragg to Bodega Bay on California state highway 1. Rates at the top for scenic drives. Unless you been there you will not understand.


Posted By: hohenwald48 on 12/20/09 01:32pm

nickelAF,

I don't think any of us really care if you want to wire up your air conditioning unit with 18AWG aluminum speaker wire. You are free to take whatever risks you want. However, we were responding to the OP's request regarding a SAFE electrical installation.

There is no reason to attempt to insult those less foolhardy than yourself.


Posted By: nickelAF on 12/20/09 02:05pm

I was making reference to number of posters who want to go into screaming, frantic fits of hysteria when they perceive something as being unsafe. Many of those exhibiting all the hysterics have little to no knowledge or practical experience concerning the subject. The suggestions offered here were simply suggestions. I personally benefit from hearing others ideas and thoughts on many suggestions offered here. Those who go into screaming hysterics do not contribute.

The reference I made concerning Northern California Hwy 1 was a very good example. All the hysterics I herd concerning this drive were wrong. Not an easy drive, but the fantastic scenery more than made up any difficulties.

Lighten up Ace it’ll be OK.

Maybe some basic information might help. Click Here.

* This post was edited 12/20/09 03:02pm by nickelAF *


Posted By: Just Bob on 12/20/09 04:54pm

Tinstar wrote:

Electrical threads are always so much fun.

Yes, No, back-feed, 3 wire, 4 wire, gauge of wire, strands of wire, 2 hots a neutral and a ground, two hots and a ground, red wire, black wire, shielded wire, non-shielded wire, bear wire, green wire, white wire, NEMA plug, 6-50R, 10-50R, 14-50R, transfer switch. 110 volt, 220 volt, imitation 50 amp circuit, 60 amp circuit, 30 amp circuit, split phase, single phase, welder circuits, stove circuits, dryer circuit, it depends.

Wow, if you were not confused before, you should be by now. I understand how it's wired and what's required but if I had to depend on RVnet's electrical threads for "how to", I could easily confuse the world and maybe burn it down.

Bottom line is like some said; "it depends".


Good one


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