piku
Hatfield
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Hi all,
I just wanted to post this partially to vent and partially to warn others of potential disaster. A year ago my fiance and I bought a 1998 Winnebago Adventurer Class A 32ft with the Ford F53 chassis with 58,000 miles on it from an older couple in the Poconos. It's a nice RV and all. Has a backup camera, no slides, no jacks, full basement, good heat, dual a/c.
I'm a very experienced shadetree mechanic working primarily on BMW's and motorcycles. I've rebuilt engines on BMW's. I can do a clutch in a few hours on one. I've rebuilt the entire suspension of my old M3 which now has 250,000 miles. I'm used to vehicles that are... well relatively trouble free. And when it does come time to do work on them, I am pretty used to the BMW way which involves a well thought out process of R&R that makes sense, with no surprises. Man I had no idea what I was getting into when I bought a motorhome!
So I thought ok it's an American vehicle. It lasts maybe half as long as a BMW before problems, maybe I can get 100,000 trouble free miles out of the motorhome. Nope. When we bought it the motorhome had no drips, dribbles or other issues. It had stains on the ceiling and a slightly soft spot which the previous owners assured us were from the two air conditioner seals which were replaced. It did indeed look like that. It had a fresh oil change and some other bits. First thing we did was drive it straight to south carolina, about 700 miles away. During this trip we found that the roof still leaked. A lot. I got on the roof with sealant and found 8 or so cracks in the fiberglass roof. The winegard tv antenna was leaking as well as other stuff.
Ok issue one... If the roof is GOING to leak, why not use composite, plastic or some other kind of roof materials that won't completely disintegrate when the leak crops up? Why not just use aluminum cross bracing even if the rest of the chassis is wood? I mean these were pretty darn expensive new.
When we get home, I find the differential stinking to high heaven. Diff oil is coming out the front seal. Checked the vent, it's not clogged. Great, need a new pinion seal. It's got a knock. I found out later that this is the exhaust manifold. As it turns out holding 70mph up the mountains was probably a bad idea. You live you learn (I normally drive a good bit faster in my little sports cars and never had any trouble). Finally, I noticed that the radiator was leaking. So I find a "truck and rv service place" which happens to be a ford dealer. They promise $1000 in labor. I bought $1000 in parts. A nice copper/brass radiator, fan clutch, water pump, pulleys, belts, hoses, thermostat, and all tuneup parts. I did the tuneup bits myself. No problem there. I look at the radiator and I'm thinking hmm. I'll farm it out.
As it turns out they had to drain the A/C system just to get the radiator out because it wouldn't come out the top or the bottom. Never in my life did I think I would see a vehicle which had so much SPACE which would be SO HARD to work on! So they get the radiator out, take the water pump off and find a notch on the timing cover is corroded away. They whined about stuck and broken bolts. Mind you, this has never happened on any BMW I have worked on, even exhaust bolts and studs. Everything comes off like butter. So the timing cover is broken. They need to replace it. Removing the timing cover somehow got coolant into the oil so they had to drain out my fresh synthetic oil. Argh! $1000 turned into $2000 and the total job turned into $3000. Great. Oh well, at least I'll have a nice RELIABLE RV. I get it back and the exhaust manifold noise comes and goes from time to time. I take a look and see a chunk of the head broken off near the rear bolt on the driver side. So I take the chunk and reapply it with thermosteel. Nope didn't work. I figure whatever and keep driving it.
So the roof keeps leaking. I keep doing my best to patch it. I can find leaks only in the hardest rain but I can't find the source. I eternabond everything. Still get wetness sometimes but since the water travels who knows where it's coming from! Argh! Who thought of this setup!?
The diff is leaking. I cut my losses and simply top it up now and then. It leaks very little. The smell comes from the axle seal leaking a bit onto the rotor. Not too dangerous but not good either.
So fast forward the exhaust manifold leak is getting worse, making more noise. So I take it in this time to a different service facility because we were horrified by the terrible service we got at the last place. The last place did a great job mechanically but their customer service was god awful and their scheduling worse. This place again screws us, taking days after our "appointment" to even look at it. I was very careful to take it to them for a NOISE. I said PLEASE FIND THE CAUSE OF THE NOISE. They call me and say hey, you have 2 bad exhaust manifolds. I say ARE YOU SURE!? No other issue? THey say yes. So fine, I buy manifolds to bring them. What a *nightmare*. See ford has tons of parts that have subtle differences between them. This causes you to easily get the wrong part. Parts with the same part # but are designated over or under 8500 pounds GVW? What's the difference!? A set of exhaust manifold bolts that are for a Ford 460 in pickups, but not motorhome!? WHY!? This super common engine should be dirt simple to find parts for. Everything should match the pickup. It doesn't.
So they call back. Well actually you have a giant chunk that fell out of your head. I look at it. The exhaust soot pattern is coming out the bottom of the port. The chunk came out of the top. The chunk has corrosion on it meaning it's been broken for quite some time. The bolt hole is trashed beyond repair... I really do need a new head. It's easy to think that this is my fault for ignoring it but it's no matter. What happened is in most cases the bolt head snaps off from the crappy manifold warping. In my case the bolt held and the whole freaking head broke! So I'm out another $3000! WOW!
But lets back up and talk about the most terrifying experience I've ever had in a vehicle - the F53 death wobble. My wife and I race so we have a race car and trailer. One time I accidentally put a bit too much weight on the tongue which unloaded the front wheels a bit. I don't think dangerously so but it was enough to allow side to side oscillations in the front suspension. This resulted in a dramatic VIOLENT shaking that broke a bunch of things in the motorhome until we were able to slow down to about 15 mph. The fix, a pan hard rod available for ... $500!???? REALLY!? For a chunk of steel!?
So I think man, I must have really made a mistake.. Maybe I should have gotten the workhorse chassis. Nope, apparnetly they have a tendency to completely lose the engine. I verified this by checking out craigslist. Sure enough 90% of the WH chassis say "brand new engine!" Wow. They also have huge manifold problems too apparently.
So I think man, maybe i should have bought a diesel. And then I find the dirty little secret about the diesel is that although the core engine lasts a long time they are in need of constant repair and LOVE overheating up the mountains due to the rear engine configuration.
So I think MAN. What to do? Well the only option I see is to buy a BMW X5 and tow a camper with it. But I lose so much. The X5 in europe can tow a LOT. Like 9000 pounds and do it safely, but here only 6k is legal. This means I lose a lot. No generator, no satellite, no storage and the price is about double what I paid for hte motorhome. So despite all this hell the motorhome is the best choice for me. I can tow the race car and I get the luxury accomodations and storage but man.. I really am left feeling &@#^$@.
Does anyone make a good motorhome? Like for *any* amount of money? Something well designed, designed to last, designed with serviceability in mind, designed with a good chassis and great towing capabilities? It's shocking to me to think that after all my issues, my google searches reveal to me that I have actually the BEST option out there! You poor people!
PS: Oh and just for fun the internet directed me repeatedly to the flex plate for the knocking noise (under load) so before finding out the head was ruined, I pulled the transmission in my driveway only to find a flawless intact flexplate. What a waste of a weekend.
I love the motorhome, and I love rving but I think I'm alone in my age bracket and after my experiences I'm not surprised. Thinking about buying a tent.
*sigh*
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piku
Hatfield
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Joined: 07/19/2011
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Oh and the new place has to AGAIN drain the chassis A/C system (which btw doesn't really WORK well at all and causes engine heating up so it shouldn't be there to begin with) because ford put the compressor in the *dumbest* possible location.
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MartinDYN
SoCal
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Joined: 01/06/2010
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WHEW!!!
'70 Jeep CJ5 + Sears Tent(Sold)
'70 Jeep + '63 Field and Stream Trailer(Sold)
'86 Ford F250 + Lance Camper(Sold)
'73 Dodge Sportscoach Class A(Sold)
'86 GM Eleganza 31' Class A(Sold)
'99 Suburban + '74 AS Landyacht(Sold)
'97 Damon Intruder 35' DP CAT
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antsinmypants
massillon ohio
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Joined: 01/01/2008
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OMG i own a 2003 adventurer with f53 chassis
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Big Katuna
Deland, FL
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Joined: 12/27/2003
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I had a 97 F-53. I agree the 90's F53's were not the best chassis ever built. It was fine when used as a U-Haul box truck but at 20K pounds it was just too overloaded. I too, learned the hard way about the marginal brakes, sticky calipers, bad fuel pump design, broken manifold bolts, air cleaner impossible to change. One of the happiest days in my life was when I traded it on a new DP. I wish, as I am guessing you are wishing, I had researched more and read about the chassis on RV.NET and other forums. If it makes you feel any worse, after 2000, both Ford and GM chassis got much better. The V-10 is a much better engine.
I had lots of trouble finding competent repair houses for the chassis. Most car places won't touch an RV and most RV places are barely adequate in the non coach areas. Totally opposite from DP's. Diesel shops welcome RV's and I have had nothing but positive experiences with them. NOT CHEAP, mind you but competent and fast.
BTW, DP's don't have overheating problems from having rear engines unless the rear rad isn't cleaned as req'd AND-OR the user allowed the slobber tube to spew oil mist on the rad. My engine temp rarely moves up, even in the mountains.
As far as well built motorhomes, there are some. My recommendation is a well cared for Foretravel at whatever price point you can afford. They are designed to be worked on. They have a unibody design, the tanks are readily removable, you can call the factory and talk to a knowledgable tech and they are very well built.
And all roofs can leak. They have to be maintained. Take it to a place that does Sealtech testing ($150) to show you where it is leaking.
Hang in there. Maybe a tree will fall on it!
My Kharma ran over my Dogma.
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piku
Hatfield
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Never heard of sealtech testing! Awesome! A dealer a couple miles away has it. If they charge around $100 or less seems well worth it
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piku
Hatfield
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$99 .. magic number. Made an appointment. At least THAT problem will be taken care of.
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John&Joey
Some Location
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Sounds like you beat on the thing when you drive, and the old owners never changed the antifreeze. Many F53's and WH's out there doing RV'ing.
I'm no fan of American auto's, but you really have no choice in Class A's. The best you can do is use a light foot, and make sure you adhere to the maintenance schedule on everything.
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piku
Hatfield
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I beat the ever loving******out of my cars but I was pretty ginger with the rv even when I was trying to maintain 70 the first trip out. I certainly was far from wide open throttle up the hills or even at any point. The only problem is that this rig has been towing either a trailer or a toad most of its life well before me, but ironically the manifold leak started when not towing. Ever since then it's been 62mph cruising speed with no hard acceleration. Even when trying to maintain 70 I did my best to stay in overdrive. I was thinking though maybe that's the problem. Maybe the EGT's are much higher at the lower rpm high load condition. I wonder if it would be better for these rigs to kick them out of overdrive up the hills and suffer the lesser fuel economy just to get more air through the manifolds and run them cooler.
I wouldn't be posting here whining if I didn't find numerous other people posting the same problems. I'm just having them all. Oh and I Doubt they changed the antifreeze but I did. I'm pretty strict with maintenance as you could probably infer from the fact that I replaced the entire cooling system proactively. I do believe this chassis is garbage - it just happens to be the best garbage available for the money 
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webhannet
Southern Coastal Maine
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Joined: 08/09/2004
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Interesting, but sad reading. You're a "can do" guy - you're probably better able to deal with it than most other people.
I think you already know - it was a bit "beat" when you bought it, and you're finishing the job. It was never really up to the hills, the speed, ... and did you say you're towing with it?
It's all lessone learned the hard and expensive way. I suppose this particular coach needed far more looking-over before you bought it. The roof issues should have been visible - and I know that can make you crazy.
Frankly, the "truck" background of mot RV's is misleading - and they aren't TANKS. A poorly maintained, "beat" RV can be far too much trouble. I hope the lessons will help you find a really good one. I think you'll be a "Diesel Guy" oon enough.
Good luck!
PS - the front and rear Panhard bars ARE worth it, and some people have actually fashioned their own - pretty simple design-wise. You will also like a SafeTSteer and Bilstien shocks
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