mlts22
Austin, Texas
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Joined: 11/15/2010
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I'm sure one reason that builders are not stepping up is the fact that they know what happens after a boom... all the houses they build will be empty and will never sell once the well runs dry.
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westernrvparkowner
montana
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Joined: 11/29/2008
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RAS43 wrote:westernrvparkowner wrote:
Saying the industries should set up housing is easy, doing it is vastly more difficult. Even with the land, they would have to get permits, utilities, roads, environmental impact waivers, defeat local property owner's opposition and jump through multiple hoops and dodge multiple obstacles. Figure three years minimum. Doesn't really help anything now.
It sure does not help now BUT the oil companies had plenty of time prior to beginning to produce oil or gas for the planning and working with local folks to provide the needed infrastructure. Geological studies, test drilling and drill site planning take time. The quickest way to go broke is to build infrastructure based on rumors and potential activity. There is probably not a town in the country that hasn't been rumored to be the next home of a Walmart Distribution Center, the next Disney Park, the new home of an NFL stadium, the relocation spot of choice for Exxon, a new Government service center and on and on and on. Until the business materializes, building on spec is just that, speculation. If Williston had built housing for the expected 10,000 oilfield workers and the oilfields didn't pan out, there would be a lot of broke people and a town with a huge amount of unused infrastructure the remaining residents would have to pay for.
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grandma lynn
Idaho
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I usually stay out of these type of dicussions but there seems to be a lot of arm chair quarterbacking going on. Unlike a lot of the posters I have been to the Williston Wallmart. I did not feel endangered but by the same token I would not go there at night. The communities in that area are really struggling, lack of infastucture being one of the reasons that more housing is not available. Oil companies have been stepping to the plate with help for roads, man-camps and places for rvs, but it can only be done so fast and without the infastucture it is really hard. Some small communities as in 350 people have had to put a moratoreum on building. They cannot service the number of people that have moved in. The difficulty of going from a population of 350 to 1000 or more is beyond belief for us that do not live there. Sorry this has been long but Walmart had to do something to reclaim their parking lot. I feel really bad for the people that have used their last dollars to get to that area because they heard there were jobs and now have to stay in inhuman conditions till they can get a job and then get on the waiting list for some kind of housing.
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JayWalker2009
USA
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Joined: 08/11/2009
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chuckster11 wrote:You assume that the people camping at Walmart were oil field workers. That may or may not have been the case, many may have been drawn to Williston for other reasons related to the oil field work, which brings up the normal and natural "solution" to problems like this--let normal business practice take up the challenge of taking advantage of the great business environment. If there is money to be made in creating RV parks, apartments, housing, etc. someone will step up with the money and build the facilities and make a profit doing so. It is not the job of the oil companies to provide housing, only to make a profit which provides jobs. It is not "government's" job to provide housing either. Everyone has choices and if you want/need work and can find it in North Dakota--go, be employed, work, profit but don't demand that WalMart and/or your employer provide housing. If the oil companies need workers and if the only way to get those workers is to build housing, housing will be built. Obviously the oil companies aren't at the point now so it is time for enterprising builders to step in and fill the need.
It really doesn't matter if they are all oil workers or not, regardless of who they are, they are breaking walmart's policy. I do feel badly for them, but it sounds like they weren't exactly being mild mannered "house" guests either. The article said walmart has tolerated this a couple of months (wow, they really went above and beyond IMO) and that they are not putting up with "loitering, littering and noise" any longer. Sounds like the workers who were camping there wore out their own welcome, and if that is the case, it's hard to feel too much pity. It's one thing to go there if they had nowhere to stay, a totally different issue when they abuse it while staying there.
It sounds like they (oil company) do NEED workers that badly if so many are camping at walmart, so in that regard they do need to step up to the plate and help with some temp housing. I can only assume that there is not enough locals who already live there to fill all the jobs.
And it is only a builder's responsibility if the workers or the oil company is footing the bill. Builder's can't build housing out of thin air.
I think this is one instance where walmart can be applauded. Sounds like they did let them stay far longer than their policy allowed to try to be of some help, but looks like they got tired of being taken advantage of. This is what gets me in the case of some government programs as well - people get funding and money for housing, food, etc and so many totally abuse those priveledges many times, and start feeling like they are entitled. It makes one not feel as altruistic in helping someone out when that happens.
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The Texan
Home: Idaho - Location: Texas
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JayWalker2009 wrote:
It really doesn't matter if they are all oil workers or not, regardless of who they are, they are breaking walmart's policy.
Really, please show me the "Walmart policy" they are breaking. The last one I read, said it was the individual store manager who decided on the policy of RV parking in the parking lot.
I do feel badly for them, but it sounds like they weren't exactly being mild mannered "house" guests either. The article said walmart has tolerated this a couple of months (wow, they really went above and beyond IMO) and that they are not putting up with "loitering, littering and noise" any longer. Sounds like the workers who were camping there wore out their own welcome, and if that is the case, it's hard to feel too much pity. It's one thing to go there if they had nowhere to stay, a totally different issue when they abuse it while staying there.
It sounds like they (oil company) do NEED workers that badly if so many are camping at walmart, so in that regard they do need to step up to the plate and help with some temp housing. I can only assume that there is not enough locals who already live there to fill all the jobs.
And it is only a builder's responsibility if the workers or the oil company is footing the bill. Builder's can't build housing out of thin air.
Why not? They did it for years in the very recent past.
I think this is one instance where walmart can be applauded. Sounds like they did let them stay far longer than their policy allowed to try to be of some help, but looks like they got tired of being taken advantage of. This is what gets me in the case of some government programs as well - people get funding and money for housing, food, etc and so many totally abuse those privileges many times, and start feeling like they are entitled. It makes one not feel as altruistic in helping someone out when that happens. I see you want to get this thread closed with your last statement.....
Bob & Betsy(FishNFanatic) - USN Aviation Ret'd '78 & FL LEO Ret'd '03 & "Oath Keeper Forever"
'05 HR Endeavor 40PRQ, 400 Cummins W/ 540w/35A solar system -Pulling our '05 GMC Sierra LT, CC, Z-71, w/ 2010 Silver Rzr in back.
Where the wheels are stopped
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chuckster11
Idaho
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Joined: 04/30/2004
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My point was that the oil companies were both being blamed for and being held responsible for these WalMart campers--they are not. If and when they lose needed workers for their efforts in North Dakota, when the lack of housing hurts their ability to extract the oil, then they should act. Until then there is profit to be made by real estate development.
I can't think of a reason why money cannot be made by fulfilling the needs of gainfully employed oil field workers.
It is a sign of the times when some believe that somehow employers, governments, social agencies are responsible for providing housing for well employed workers.
I'm sure once the winter is over, the speculators and builders will do what they do best, provide shelter for those that want it and RV spaces for those that need such facilities. Nice thing about capitalism is that services follow the money.
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JayWalker2009
USA
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chuckster11 wrote:My point was that the oil companies were both being blamed for and being held responsible for these WalMart campers--they are not. If and when they lose needed workers for their efforts in North Dakota, when the lack of housing hurts their ability to extract the oil, then they should act. Until then there is profit to be made by real estate development.
I can't think of a reason why money cannot be made by fulfilling the needs of gainfully employed oil field workers.
It is a sign of the times when some believe that somehow employers, governments, social agencies are responsible for providing housing for well employed workers.
I'm sure once the winter is over, the speculators and builders will do what they do best, provide shelter for those that want it and RV spaces for those that need such facilities. Nice thing about capitalism is that services follow the money.
While I agree with you on many points, I disagree that in some instances employers are not responsible for providing housing. If the ONLY way they can get the job done is to bring people in from elsewhere, and those people they are bringing in have no where to stay and are illegally parking at places that they are not supposed to, then to get the job done they need to provide some alternative. Which apparently, they are not.
When an employer cannot find enough local people to do the job, and they can't find enough people who are not local who can afford housing, then they bear the responsibility of doing whatever it takes to get their job done. If they can't, then the job isn't going to be completed. When I was in the business of hiring people, and when I knew that some jobs were not going to be filled locally, and if I could not find folks elsewhere willing to move on their own dime, then I had to convince my employer that we needed to provide relocation services or some type of housing bonus that would meet our need.
If the oil company does not want to provide housing and only has employed people who have to camp out illegally, then they need to take another look at their business and hire locally. If not, they need to provide the needs for those they hire who cannot afford to live there. If they can't, they should NOT be hiring those people. Sure, that might impact jobs, but you can't get a job done by breaking the law.
And I'd like to know where "The Texan" has seen builders build houses without funding and "out of thin air" as he suggests is done. Funding has to come from someplace, either their own pockets, or the pockets of the would-be buyer. No one builds a house without knowing a source of revenue is either there, or forthcoming.
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chuckster11
Idaho
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Relocation funds and housing bonuses are quite different than employer provided housing. What your employer did not do was provide housing for an new employee--that is extremely rare except in cases like the North Slope where no private housing was available or able to be built--then some kind of contractor has to be hired to provide habitation. From the article I read the oil companies are working with the city and county to provide some assistance with infrastructure needs.
However, I am sure that some assistance is given for managers and top line personnel when their services are required.
I have a feeling that many of the problems are folks associated with the growth in the community--transients that arrive without having a job and looking for work either in the oil fields or the community. That could be difficult.
There was a long article in the local paper her about a former resident that has moved to Williston to drive a oil field service truck which discussed the difficulty of living in a fifth wheel with his wife and kids during this current winter--pay was great but the living conditions pretty rugged.
I'm sure that things will level out after the initial boom and the dust settles.
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The Texan
Home: Idaho - Location: Texas
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JayWalker2009 wrote:
And I'd like to know where "The Texan" has seen builders build houses without funding and "out of thin air" as he suggests is done. Funding has to come from someplace, either their own pockets, or the pockets of the would-be buyer. No one builds a house without knowing a source of revenue is either there, or forthcoming. I guess you never lived in Florida during the late 90s and the early 00s, where builders built houses without any money, never paid subs or suppliers and stuck the full sale price in their pocket and walked away from the junk they built.....I did and it was common.......So why can't a builder do it today in Williston. ......
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ExRocketScientist
Laurel, MD
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Did anyone take a good look at the picture in the article that shows the trailers there? Most of them look like junkers. The Coachman on the right has a for sale sign. There are obvious problems with its hot water heater, there are no propane tanks or battery on the tongue, and part of the fender is blown off. At another one, there is a propane tank sitting on the ground. I can't believe the popup there . . . with the type of temperatures they have in ND winters!
No wonder the folks there sense safety issues. This looks pretty seedy.
ERS
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