FarmerJohn
Webster, NY, USA
New Member
Joined: 06/08/2003
View Profile
 Offline
|
We're considering getting a TT for 2 adults, a 5 & a 1 year old. We have a front wheel drive, Pontiac Montana Minivan that has a towing package (heavy duty cooling, heavy duty flasher, automatic level control). The manual says "Trailer Provisions: 3500 lbs". We saw a 21' Rockwood Ultra Lite TT that we liked but not sure if the new Minivan can handle it - originally bought the vehicle to haul a 4x8 trailer for mower, etc. Specs for the TT says Axle Weight: 2535, Hitch Weight:306, UDW: 2841, GVWR:4706. I'm told we need a Class III hitch. Safety of the family is tops of course. I also worry about sway when the 18 wheelers pass by. I heard about the Pullrite hitch and a Hensley about how they pretty much eliminate sway but are also $2K. Are these types of hitches overkill for my application or are they worth it?
We've always did the tent camping before the kids and know nothing about trailering. I just want to say I've enjoyed the forum's very caring & knowledgeable members - and we are definitely wannabees.
|
Drbolasky
Allentown, PA
Senior Member
Joined: 04/20/2002
View Profile
Good Sam RV Club
Offline
|
John:
You're not going to like what you hear, but minivans - especially the front-wheel drive models - don't make good tow vehicles. The tow rating for your Pontiac - 3500# - assumes a 150 lb. or so driver and no other passengers or cargo in the vehicle; so til you get the spouse & kids in the Pontiac, subtract their weight from the tow rating, PLUS anything else you load in the van; stroller, playpen, etc. Keep in mind, too, that the hitching equipment has weight. For the most part the transmissions in minivans aren't meant for the sustained demands of towing, especially since you will be at or over your maximum (see below). Minivans tend to be softly sprung (for a smooth ride) and have "P" rated tires (also for a smooth ride but not as durable for towing). It is also entirely possible that once you hitch up, the tongue weight of your trailer will overload the rear axle WR of your van.
As for the weight of your trailer (speaking as a family man, too) it is amazing how quickly the pounds add up when you load for a trip; utensils, food, drinks, clothing & bedding, toys, games, books, bikes, water, propane, lawn chairs, etc, etc. etc. It is not unusual to wind up adding 1,000# of "stuff" when you pack for a family of four. Even if you don't violate your trailer's GWR, I am sure you will overload your Pontiac.
What to do? Since us family types tend to not have a lot of spare cash lying around, maybe start shopping for a good used Ford or GM SUV, full size van, or extended/quad cab pickup truck. Also, many Durango owners swear by their trucks, too (they're not one of my favorites, even for a DaimlerChrysler guy like me). Ask lots of questions of the saleman for cold hard facts - GVWR, GCWR, front & rear axle WRatings, tire ratings, rear axle ratio, and so on. If he/she can't do that, thank them for their time and go to another dealer; don't fall for the "this will pull your trailer, no problem!" line. Lots of folks here can tell you if the vehicle you're looking at will do the job you want to do. You're in the right place. Take your time and ask lots of questions, and someday you will be able to return the favor for another newcomer.
Good luck and stay in touch.
Doug, Linda, Audrey & Andrew
08 Sequoia SR-5, 5.7 L I-Force V8, 6 sp. Auto, 4.30 Rear, 2000 Coachmen Futura 2790TB Bunkhouse, Dexter E-Z Flex Suspension, Reese W.D. Hitch & Dual Cam Sway Control, Prodigy Brake Controller, McKesh Mirrors, Nuvi 650 GPS
|
ktosv
Allendale, MI
Senior Member
Joined: 08/17/2002
View Profile
Offline
|
We have a Trail-Cruiser C22. It is 24' overall and weighs about 3300# dry. It has a tongue weight of about 480#, so the axle weight is about 2820#. I would like to occasionally tow this with our Silhouette minivan for shorter or local trips we take. Since I have been pondering towing with the van, I had the van weighed at a local grain elevator and here is what I found:
Front Axle: 2440
Rear Axle: 1840
Total: 4280.
That weight included a full tank of gas, my wife and daughter. The total weight of the van with me, my wife, daughter and dog (with a full tank of gas) would be about 4500#. The GVWR of the van is 5400#, my axle weight ratings are both 2750#. This means that I can add 900 additional pounds to the van and be under the 5400# GVWR. So, when I add my 480# tongue weight I am still under my GVWR, and I should not exceed either of my axle weight ratings.
Now, the question is the 3500# trailer weighting. My owners manual clearly states that I can tow 3500#, and that includes two passengers. So, I subtract 75# off of the 3500 for my daughter and dog and end up being able to tow 3425#. Now of course, there will probably end up being about 100# of extra stuff in the van, so I would drop that to 3325#. My axle weight of the trailer is just over 2800#. That gives me about 500# that I could carry in the camper. By the numbers, I say that my minivan can tow my camper.
Last summer we did a 3000 mile trip out east with a 2000# pop-up and the van towed great. I have also towed my dads 3300# boat with the van and it does fine, but the aerodynamics of the boat is a little different, so we don't have all of the drag. I know in large hills the van would slow down, and I would probably have to use 2nd gear.
Is your Montana a long wheel base or short? If it is the long wheel base (120"), you will have better stability. According to the wheel base theory (if I have it correct), a long wheel base minivan should be able to tow a trailer just over 22'.
In regards to actually towing the trailer, I don't know what kind of sway control you would need. The Reese dual cam costs less then the others you mentioned and would be a good option. I would also consider the Prodigy brake controler (as others swear by them).
If you did decide to tow that size of a camper with your minivan, I would highly recommend having your tranny fluid changed every year. If I move forward with towing with mine I am going to consider putting a second tranny cooler in along with a temp gauge. Hopefully this information helps.
Kevin and my...
Wife, three daughters, a son
and two dogs(brittany and english setter)
2005 Suburban (295HP/335#-ft, 3.42 axle)
1994 Caprice LT1 (260HP/330#-ft, 2.93 axle)
2003 Trail Cruiser C22
|
BenK
SF BayArea
Senior Member
Joined: 04/18/2002
View Profile
|
Add that if you plan to do this for years, make sure to check the hitch bolts often. Better to have over sized washers or even better yet, backing plates on the inside.
Unless this minivan has ladder frame construction, which is highly unlikely.
What happens is that the sheetmetal panels that the hitch bolts to is held to the other panels with spot welds. This is monocoque or unibody construction. Those spot welds take a beating when towing close/at the limits. Stress fracture (aka cracks) develop and finally break. Before they break, they rust because they have exposed bare metal.
When they put on the Class III or Class IV hitch, DO NOT ALLOW them to drill out any spot welds. It's like taking off a bolt holding the panels together. I'd have them drill in another spot, even drilling new hole in hitch.
DO NOT use weight distribution set up either, as unibody is NOT good for this. WD works by moving some of the tonuge weight forward onto the front axle. Tremendous stresses on the spot welds of a unibody.
Okay for short periods, but long term, not a good idea. Even short term will take it's toll.
PS...P rated tires must be DE-RATED min 9% when used in LT applications (hauling/towing), while kept at max pressure.
-Ben Picture of my rig
1996 GMC SLT Suburban 3/4 ton K3500/7.4L/4:1/+150Kmiles orig owner...
1980 Chevy Silverado C10/long bed/"BUILT" 5.7L/3:73/1 ton helper springs/+329Kmiles, bought it from dad...
1998 Mazda B2500 (1/2 ton) pickup, 2nd owner...
Praise Dyno Brake equiped and all have "nose bleed" braking!
Previous trucks/offroaders: 40's Jeep restored in mid 60's / 69 DuneBuggy (approx +1K lb: VW pan/200hpCorvair: eng, cam, dual carb'w velocity stacks'n 18" runners, 4spd transaxle) made myself from ground up / 1970 Toyota FJ40 / 1973 K5 Blazer (2dr Tahoe, 1 ton axles front/rear, +255K miles when sold it)...
Sold the boat (looking for another): Trophy with twin 150's...
51 cylinders in household, what's yours?...
|
6MISFITZ
Fort Erie, ON, CANADA
Senior Member
Joined: 04/15/2003
View Profile
Offline
|
Don't just look at the trailer axle weight and hitch weight as 2 separate numbers, what it acutally means is that your trailer weighs 2841 dry. Add to that, an awning, ac, battery and 2 full propane tanks and you will now have a number very close to if not over the 3000# mark. That is before you add any groceries, linens, camping gear and water.
Make sure you look at the loaded numbers to make sure you are UNDER maximum BEFORE you buy this trailer. I am sure your dealer can weigh this properly for you. If not find another dealer.
As long as you are under your GVWR (with everyone on board) for the van and under the trailer max then you should be safe when you look at the gCvwr total.
A decent sway control is a must as is a weight distribution hitch with bars which will work for your situation, just not as perfectly as a Hensley Arrow. You will be close just I am not sure on what side of close?
Mike.
Mom, Dad, 4 kids, 2 Camping Dogs
Express 2500 LS (135"WB) 6.0L, 4.10, G80, PYO wheels, HENSLEY & McKesh
--------------------
MISFITZ RACING
MFCC Member
Rallies Attended 4, 7 Un-Rallies
|
|
|
itwonder
Warrenton, VA
Full Member
Joined: 05/23/2003
View Profile
Offline
|
It sounds like it's on the heavy side because you are packing for a family of four in addition to pulling the trailer. A rough rule of thumb is take the TT's brochure advertised dry weight and add 1000 lbs. for the real weight, ready to camp. That allows for the options you are going to order on the TT, fluids, and gear. Consider lighter options like the ShadowCruiser 160 or 189, or the Sun Valley X-treme Lite XT-180, or a pop-up. If you trade the Montana for an Astro, the Rockwood 2104 will be a much better fit.
There is a less expensive hitch that is popular for smaller trailers. It's named the Equal-i-zer and you can buy it at a good price from www.rvwholesalers.com .
*This Message was edited on 09-Jun-03 02:40 PM by itwonder*
Bob
2002 Toyota Sequoia SR5
|
drwleggett
Northern Colorado
Senior Member
Joined: 08/29/2001
View Profile
Offline
|
John,
Ditto Bob's advice to check out the Shadow Cruisers and Sun Valley X-treme Ultra Lites as well as their Road Runner line for the lightest trailers available to tow with your Montana. You can also check out the fiberglass "eggs" that will sleep your family of 4, like Casita and Scamp.
We have a Shadow Cruiser T-160 for our family of 5 (one teenager, two pre-teens). Advertised dry weight is 1900#, which was only 200# more than the advertised dry weight of the Coleman popup we had that it replaced.
My actual UVW (with my options of awning, fantastic fan, TV antenna, dealer installed dual batteries and 14" rims/tires, and a full LP tank) is 2000#. Will full fresh and hot water tanks and packed for a weekend getaway, trailer weight is 2500#. Packed for 4-7 days of camping, weight is 2700#. Packed to the gills for 2 weeks of dry camping (lots of extra full water containers and bundles of firewood), weight is 3000#. Tongue weight runs from 180# unloaded to 280# max load.
We've had our T-160 over 20 months and towed over 13,000 miles. I'm a very satisfied owner.
Happy and safe shopping,
Dr. Wes Leggett
1998 GMC Suburban (5920 UVW, 7000 GVW, 7300 GVWR, 12000 GCWR)
2002 Shadow Cruiser Fun Finder T-160 (2020 UVW, 3000 GVW, 3500 GVWR)
Lightweight trailers for 4 adults plus 1 teen under 24' and 3200 UVW
Yahoo! Shadow Cruiser Fun Finders Forum
|
FloridaNative
Florida
Senior Member
Joined: 01/31/2003
View Profile
Offline
|
Trail-lite Bantam B-17, Scamp, Casita.
Should be able to tow those if you're careful.
-Mike
2007 Toyota Sienna
2006 Cikira 16CC
|
JIMMY034
Springville, NY (S. of Buffalo)
Senior Member
Joined: 04/30/2001
View Profile
Offline
|
I will venture to say that I am probably the most qualified forum member to answer this question, the reason being, I was EXACTLY where you WANT to be until a couple years ago, right down to the brand of trailer!
I won't go into repeating what the others have said about weights and limitations, but I will give you my real world experience as to why it's a good idea to listen to what the others have told you.
We had a Chrysler Town & Country minivan, 3.8 V-6, factory tow package (Chrysler/Dodge puts the BEST tow package together than does anyone else), and bought a 21' Rockwood TT! How'd it do? Well, to be honest, I 'got away with it' for three years, but at a great toll to the van and its transmission. At the time, when I first joined this forum (a couple years AFTER already towing this way) I would actually argue with others about how 'safe' I was and how 'good' this tows etc etc. Fact is, as it turns out, I THOUGHT that towing a trailer SHOULD be a white-knuckle, harrowing experience with the RPM's screaming up into the 4,000 range. I couldn't even use the A/C in the van if I was towing in temps above 75°F, as the engine would overheat in a matter of minutes, you could literally watch the needle rise from the normal point at a very fast rate toward the red area.
Also, when it was raining, and I had to use the windshield defogger, well, guess what that does...it uses the A/C compressor to dry the air and clear the windshield! So, even if it wasn't hot outside, the A/C compressor was running if you needed to clear your windshield and that robbed a SERIOUS amount of power from the motor!! I mean big time. With the A/C on (either on a hot day or to keep the windshield clear) I was lucky to maintain 55 mph on a flat road! No joke.
I had my tranny serviced religiously every 15,000 miles, as recommended in the owners manual if towing a trailer, but it still had a lot of problems. My van spent half the time in my driveway, the other half in the shop. Thank God for the extended warranty, but still, I went many days without the vehicle that I was making the payment on!
The tow rating for ANY vehicle is based on a BASE MODEL vehicle with one 150-pound driver and full gas. Well, as you probably know, the Town & Country is the top of the range with all options, so THAT reduced my towing capacity from 3,500 pounds to God knows what. Then add the extra weight for me (I'm not 150 pounds!), my (no longer) wife, and the three kids, and though I didn't know it at the time, I was probably 1,500 pounds OVERWEIGHT and that is before even adding anything to the trailer! My 21' Rockwood, model 2108, had a dry UVW (Unloaded Vehicle Weight) of 2,688 pounds. I was overloaded before anyone got in the van and before I threw in the first sleeping bag. In hindsight, how I got away with it for so long, three years, is beyond me. But that van WORKED, and it paid the price, and so did I when the time came to trade it in. It was basically worthless. I would have lost a LOT LESS MONEY had I traded it in after having it only a year, rather than waiting until three years later and running it into the ground, basically.
So, I know this isn't what you wanted to hear, but from personal experience, I wish I had found this forum and asked the question you just did BEFORE I went ahead and bought the trailer, I would have bitten the bullet and traded up to a more suitable tow vehicle (and lose maybe $4,000 rather than the $12,000 I lost when I traded it in for my truck...that's right...$12,000 in the hole!!!) and THEN bought a BIGGER trailer, matched to the new truck, then to have gone through what I went through. I learned my lesson the expensive way...luckily we stayed safe, well, got lucky anyway, and we had no mishaps, but I can tell you honestly that you WILL regret towing a TT with that minivan as soon as you pull it off the lot. It is NOT normal for your engine to scream at 4,000 RPM and for you to hold the steering wheel so tight you have to pry your fingers off it when you get where you're going. Buy a pop-up, or bite the proverbial bullet and buy a truck or larger SUV/full size van etc. to tow this trailer. You WON'T regret doing that, but you WILL regret using your minivan. Trust me...been there, done that. Hope this helps, sorry for the bad news, but I wish I had had the experience to tap into when I was in your position.
2005 Silverado 2500HD 4X4 C/C/6.0/4.10/Pullrite Super 5th/Prodigy.
2004 Puma 249RBS fifth-wheel bunkhouse.
Jim, Darlene, Michael, Sam, Brian and Hollyann, and cats Biscuit and Stardst USAF/GULF WAR VET.
|
Drbolasky
Allentown, PA
Senior Member
Joined: 04/20/2002
View Profile
Good Sam RV Club
Offline
|
Jim's answer sums it all up, doesn't it??
|
|
|
|
